Slavery?

[adisknight]

I agree with Blxz.
The penalty in relations for slaving someone should be far, much far, greater than the bonus for realising then from captivity and even lesser if you're releasing them from your own command.
I do agree that the slavery system in a world as Kenshi is is much plausable.

[Blxz]

Well, I was sort of saying there shouldn't be a penalty. Slaving is supposed to be part of the world. We don't get negative reactions from our neighbours when we keep pets for example. it is seen as the thing to do. (not to compare keeping pets to keeping slaves in the same magnitude of evil)

So, doing something socially acceptable should be...socially acceptable. I feel there should be no negative or bonus included within the game. Vague moral choices have the greatest effect when they are not stuffed in your face with number modifiers (which trivialises the whole thing).

[lkenage]

Actually, adding onto what Blxz said:

I think that there should be some factions that are pro-slavery or anti-slavery. Depending on your actions, you can potentially alienate yourself from the anti-slavery factions.

How would this work?
When I say pro-slavery factions, I would imagine that these factions have slaves performing all sorts of menial tasks (mining, farming...) instead of laborers. If the player were to get a bunch of slaves for himself, then nothing would change between the player and the pro-slavery faction -- the player is merely following the status quo. On the other hand, the player's status in the minds of anti-slavery nations would decrease if he obtains slaves on a large scale. Yet, if the player were to go everywhere and deliberately free slaves, pro-slavery nations would look disfavorably on the player's actions -- his actions could give slaves ideas and threaten the economy of pro-slavery nations.

In these scenarios, scale should be a factor. Depending on the scale of the player's pro/anti-slavery actions (whether or not he has legions of slaves working for him, or he's on a crusade to free all the slaves), the relationship between the player and pro/anti-slavery factions could deteriorate to the point of war. Small scale pro/anti-slavery actions (obtaining a single slave or freeing a single slave) could have zero impact on faction relations.

[zibathy]

I think there should be fame/infamy instead of karma if it gets added, but I don't think it should really be added at all. Freeing slaves should make the empire you freed them from hate you, and all slaves like you more, and if there are any anti-slave factions they'll like you too. Simple as that.

[Ragnar]

I was imagining the slaves system and I came up with what I would like to see implemented. There should be difference in how you obtain slaves.
Basically, if you enslave someone yourself you get negative reputation with the faction the slave is from, because you are responsible for taking his freedom away

- BUT -

if you buy slaves from a slaver, there is no negative reputation, because... I don't know, I like to think that the act of buying slaves is less terrible or even acceptable.

TL;DR: Taking someone's freedom = bad. Buying someone = not that bad.







As it took me around 30 minutes to try and write this, I got into thinking... What if there could be different ways to be enslaved? E.g.: Can't pay my debts? -> Slavery.
Someone from my party made some incredibly stupid mistake? I don't want to see him anymore. -> Slavery.

So what I wrote before would make more sense: Maybe someone is willing to be enslaved for reasons known only to him, so why should I lose reputation with anyone?

[Blxz]

TL;DR: Taking someone's freedom = bad. Buying someone = not that bad.

Very eloquent. =)
But a decent point. While taking or buying a slave IS a horrible, terrible thing based on our sensitive western moralities I don't think it needs to be such a bad issue in a society where it is socially acceptable. Afterall, it really only has been the last few hundred years where the practice has fallen out of disfavour over several thousand years of human culture in the vast majority of those cultures around the world.

I don't want to see him anymore. -> Slavery.

Remind me never to work for you.

[CaptHorton]

All of this sounds great I love all the ideas floating around. Too bad you can't make a game just with ideas and have it build it self huh!

[DrSalvador]

All of this sounds great I love all the ideas floating around. Too bad you can't make a game just with ideas and have it build it self huh!

If this was possible i'd be floating in a sea of my own games hahaha

[CaptHorton]

All of this sounds great I love all the ideas floating around. Too bad you can't make a game just with ideas and have it build it self huh!

If this was possible i'd be floating in a sea of my own games hahaha

I know!!! Right? Except I would have one giant connected game, not many!!!

[Ragnar]

Remind me never to work for you.

I can be quite a good boss, you know?

Anyway yes, I think we should stop thinking about the game with our modern morality. Good god, this game is about slicings and beheadings and blood flowing everywhere! (and economy... oh well)

[Kanaro]

I don't recall a huge uprising over the fact Star Wars had slavery in it, and a lot at that. It is easy to roleplay a mediocre level of slavery without going over the top into cruelty, violence, torture, etc. Chris simply needs to find the right balance and implementation.

[Scotterius]

The idea of a faction reputation is fair I think, it has been done before and it works. If you enslave, or too many of your slaves perish, you dont capture and heal your enemies, among other things could all effect the opinions of your neighbor factions and inhabitants.

A villager might be less willing to say "Good day my leige, my wedding is next Wednesday!", if you practice prima nocta for instance. On the other hand a fearsome outcome of prisoners might influence an enemies soldiers morale.

"Slavery" exists through out history and today in many forms. I have personally seen prisoners compete among themselves for special work details...to essentially become slave labor. Giving prisoners a means to commute the penalty of attacking your faction, and joining one day as a citizen is not a negative thing.

You could do some of this with kenshi interacting with objects, much in the same way as putting a captured enemy on a bed. The placements of leg chains, whips, neck collars and assorted freedom restraining devices could be used that reflect the personal freedom (thus the level of treatment) - could in turn effect faction relation.

[skynet464]

We can enact prima nocta? Hell yeah!

[John]

Well, I was sort of saying there shouldn't be a penalty. Slaving is supposed to be part of the world. We don't get negative reactions from our neighbours when we keep pets for example. it is seen as the thing to do. (not to compare keeping pets to keeping slaves in the same magnitude of evil)

So, doing something socially acceptable should be...socially acceptable. I feel there should be no negative or bonus included within the game. Vague moral choices have the greatest effect when they are not stuffed in your face with number modifiers (which trivialises the whole thing).

Indeed, if one decides to capture and enslave bandits for example, then I think that the general census of all, or most, non-bandit factions would be along the lines of "Oh, this evil bandit is a slave, I am happy that this potential murderer is now working in bad conditions." Of course, the effect on faction relation would vary faction to faction, or example, I would imagine that the morally "good" factions would dislike the use of slavery, while "evil" factions would be fine with, or even encourage the use of slaves. And of course, factions that are in the "gray" area would be indifferent to the idea of slavery.

My thaughts on the subject.

[TheHappyPyro]

The slavery idea is quite excellent, although I think the anti-slavery factions shouldn't know you have slaves unless they witness it themselves. If you don't mind, I'd rather have my slave business... "Underground"

[Kamos]

Likely rumor would spread about it regardless even if you don't openly adhere to it.

[toaster Assassin]

I think the passing traders would notice the large mass of starving prisoners.

Well, when a faction has a bunch of units patrolling in an area and all of a sudden they are gone (around the same time you were passing by (and there are no bodies recovered)). There might be a LITTLE misunderstanding there.

[Potocobe]

It might be cool to have a slavery system that uses chains for prisoners and an overseer type rank (for the factions that keep slaves) who has the keys to the chains or maybe just one universal key, like handcuffs. The chains keep you from running away but not from using your arms and hands. Anyone who has the faction key can unlock a slaves chains from that faction. This way you could kill the overseer and free yourself, or you could kill an overseer and free someone else or you could steal the key and secretly sneak away or give the key to a slave. Maybe there could also be a slower way to break the chains of a slave. It would be cool if there were a handful of master swords that could cut iron chains. =)

Other ideas:
A. Have your weapon/armor smith craft slave chains for your faction and craft the keys as well.
B. Evil research for stronger chains/restraints, impossible to steal keys, Electric monitoring/tracking of keys and chains, exploding collars etc. =(
C. Grey market for selling slave gear such as custom chains and keys for special prisoners and basic stuff.
D. Tax enslavement/indentured servitude could have special mechanical locks that wind down over a period of time and then unlock on their own or explode if activated prematurely by a variety of methods. To ensure cooperation. =)
E. Citizenship with different factions prevents enslavement by those factions and their allies except for tax evasion or draft dodging.
F. Committing certain kinds of crimes against fellow citizens immediately revokes your citizenship. Rules vary by faction.
G. Capturing a slave or being captured is as easy as knocking someone out and slapping some chains on them! 1-2-3 Ka Ching! (don't run out of chains or you will be forced to cherry pick the good ones)
H. Slave chains are freaking heavy. Takes a strong character to carry more than a few.
I. You can use your slaves to carry your slave chains. =)
J. All these slaves and slavers carrying bags of chains and clubs are really slow. Just like the traders. Walking speed everywhere they go which means an easy target for a party that has no slaves. Maybe future research yields wagon wheels and slavers can pen a bunch of slaves into a box on wheels and move somewhat quicker.
K. Your owner could just be some old woman who owns a bar and needs help keeping the dishes clean and bought you for a measly 1000c. You wait till she is asleep and...
L. The lockpicking skill applies to slave chains which is why you need to research smarter locks.

I think tying the system to an item would be easier to do procedurally. If the item is equipped on the character then it is a slave. If the item is owned by the Unnamed Faction then that faction is the only one that can command the slave. When you sell a slave you take off your chains and the buyer puts their chains on. Easy to implement with the existing inventory system.

Your motivation for wanting to be free is that walking around everywhere in Kenshi sucks after you've gotten addicted to the fast forward button while running. You as a player wouldn't be able to stand moving around that slow. =) Your NPC's could have a built in rising dislike for being forced to walk everywhere too! This is what causes them to rebel and take a chance on freedom unless they are given a reason to tolerate it a little longer like threat of death or something.

Please feel free to add to the slavery ABC's if you can think up more facets for a system using chains and keys. I would appreciate some feedback.

[toaster Assassin]

Potocobe said:K. Your owner could just be some old woman who owns a bar and needs help keeping the dishes clean and bought you for a measly 1000c. You wait till she is asleep and...

.....clean the dishes?

[Blxz]

Potocobe said:K. Your owner could just be some old woman who owns a bar and needs help keeping the dishes clean and bought you for a measly 1000c. You wait till she is asleep and...

.....clean the dishes?

What else?