Why is everyone using micromanagement as an argument? We are discussing whether or not food and water should be required, not how it is done. That is an entirely different topic.
You are incredibly short-sighted if you think food and water would automatically mean micromanagement. What reason could you possibly have for automatically expecting this? It most certainly would not have to be tedious micromanagement.
Maybe an example of how it could be done would stop everyone from crying micromanagement? Something as simple as a window in the squad menu with an option to set how many days worth of food/water you want your squad to carry, a scroll list of your members with checkboxes so you could decide who you do/don't want to carry the supplies, (it would be equally divided among all checked members; if it is an unequal amount, then the remainder goes to whoever has the lowest encumberance percentage) and a button which automatically transports all the supplies. Pressing this button would only work in a settlement that has food/water available for sale and would automatically remove the cost (it would have an indicator below the button showing how much the supplies cost at your current location) from your cash pile. As long as you are in the settlement zone, it would work just as if you manually went to the store with each member and bought the food, and no one would even have to move. If you do this in a settlement you own, then this would be free. Would probably need a similar way to allocate how much of a settlement's resources is designated to supplying squads though, to avoid accidentally wiping out your entire town by taking all of its food and water. Squads would also eat/drink automatically without having to distribute the supplies, they would just automatically draw from a squad-wide shared pool of food/water sort of like how stocking up would work in settlements.
This could also work with medical supplies, commodities, or anything really. I may make a more detailed thread about this later, actually. I could see variations of this concept being useful for removing the micromanagement in a lot of things.
No hunger or thirst!
Well a question i would ask myself with hunger and thirst would be: Is it implemented on the travel time only or would it have more factors to calculate it like the weight ur carrying.
As the more weight u carry the hungrier and thirstier u ll get. (or maybe rephrase the more energy u have to burn so the more u have to eat and drink.)
Well there is a way to solve the hunger and thirst if ur out of food/drinks, as i read there might be cannibals in the game so u might eat a few men if ur that hungry ???
Edit :p srry i editted still while u replied :p i tend to get carried away :p
Well every suggestion raises questions :p unless its all worked out. As simply adding something to the game because its more real like that hmm. How far can u go to make it realistic. as required food u would buy means the minimum travel time from 1 location to the next, thats how it would be calculated if its automated and not micromanaged. considering to make it realistic would mean food can rot get stolen uhm u might have pest problems does the automated calculator count these events in aswell? Not that there are any of those but simply adding food and drink as a part of the game then use somthing to automate it would raise questions in my mind as in why put it in in the first place. And do we need to carry spoons aswell
Not that i am against bringing it in the game i would find it more realistic
Well its sometimes a long way to travel so bringing more then just ur men and building mats to found a new city/outpost would be fun offc; But to what extend do u want to make this game to be realistic. I might just propose in another topic to let the chars have babies and breed my own army :p Hmm would this mean i have to micromanage there marriage and stuff aswell (yey the Sims lets goooooo...) :p
As the more weight u carry the hungrier and thirstier u ll get. (or maybe rephrase the more energy u have to burn so the more u have to eat and drink.)
Well there is a way to solve the hunger and thirst if ur out of food/drinks, as i read there might be cannibals in the game so u might eat a few men if ur that hungry ???
Edit :p srry i editted still while u replied :p i tend to get carried away :p
Well every suggestion raises questions :p unless its all worked out. As simply adding something to the game because its more real like that hmm. How far can u go to make it realistic. as required food u would buy means the minimum travel time from 1 location to the next, thats how it would be calculated if its automated and not micromanaged. considering to make it realistic would mean food can rot get stolen uhm u might have pest problems does the automated calculator count these events in aswell? Not that there are any of those but simply adding food and drink as a part of the game then use somthing to automate it would raise questions in my mind as in why put it in in the first place. And do we need to carry spoons aswell
Not that i am against bringing it in the game i would find it more realistic
Well its sometimes a long way to travel so bringing more then just ur men and building mats to found a new city/outpost would be fun offc; But to what extend do u want to make this game to be realistic. I might just propose in another topic to let the chars have babies and breed my own army :p Hmm would this mean i have to micromanage there marriage and stuff aswell (yey the Sims lets goooooo...) :p
Last edited by Smiley on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Normally I'd be all for this, but this definately would be taking it a little too far. If this was a game where you only controlled one person, that would be great, but having to account for that would add too much micromanagement for a group of any more than three people. The concept I suggested above your post wouldn't be able to help with this. It may be able to supply you with enough supplies for your weight at first, but looting bandits while traveling would change the amount you need.Smiley wrote:Well a question i would ask myself with hunger and thirst would be: Is it implemented on the travel time only or would it have more factors to calculate it like the weight ur carrying.
As the more weight u carry the hungrier and thirstier u ll get. (or maybe rephrase the more energy u have to burn so the more u have to eat and drink.)
Well there is a way to solve the hunger and thirst if ur out of food/drinks, as i read there might be cannibals in the game so u might eat a few men if ur that hungry ???
I would still be all for this if it only went that far. It would make you want to bring some extra supplies in case you find anything along the way, as well as forcing you to choose what you want to loot carefully as you wouldn't be able to just pick up everything and still make it to your destination with the supplies you brought. But the problem is that you would need to bring extra supplies, which would raise your weight and end up raising the need for supplies exponentially unless you only looted one item per person, which would make looting near pointless. The reason for it raising exponentially is that the extra weight of loot would make you move slower, taking more time to reach your destination, which would mean you need more food, and the more food you bring, the heavier you are to begin with and the more food you would need to buy before heading out.
Well i would definatly play it hardcore :p. but even still Now we can only command 20 men. if i multiply this by 10. Hmm This would be a serious task, multitasking all this game has to offer.
Haha for example i have 1 scout scouting a bandit village, then my traders enter a town , few outposts get attacked, since in this early stage there's alot of questions to be asked about the actual combat.
Well i prioritise offc then to cb first but what if right at that moment my scout would be spotted can you imagine yawn back to the scout get him out of trouble back to the fighting. then hope while u took ur scout out of trouble few of my defenders died by bleeding coz i didnt assign a medic :p
do i really want to be buggered with how much food i should take with me at that stage of the game :p
even if its slightly automated would i truely want to do it for every time i set out.
Would u like to do it everytime ?
Haha for example i have 1 scout scouting a bandit village, then my traders enter a town , few outposts get attacked, since in this early stage there's alot of questions to be asked about the actual combat.
Well i prioritise offc then to cb first but what if right at that moment my scout would be spotted can you imagine yawn back to the scout get him out of trouble back to the fighting. then hope while u took ur scout out of trouble few of my defenders died by bleeding coz i didnt assign a medic :p
do i really want to be buggered with how much food i should take with me at that stage of the game :p
even if its slightly automated would i truely want to do it for every time i set out.
Would u like to do it everytime ?
Zuty Puty wrote:Smiley wrote:even if its slightly automated would i truely want to do it for every time i set out.
Would u like to do it everytime ?
Yes.
I honestly cannot figure out what you are even trying to say in the rest of your post.
Uhm all chaos, uhm i get that alot :p
Which part dont u get can u specify ? coz all is a bit much
It looks like that adding food and water as a requirement to survive has the potential to wreck havoc on providing the player to be able to do what they want to do. A way to take away freedom and abilities to explore the sandbox. So water usage should be fairly low most of the time and potentially serve as a mechanic to help limit abuse of other mechanics. Perhaps requiring a person who is mostly idle or doing actions that do not use endurance heavily. Maybe a small drink per a day. The amount would have to be examined and compared to already existing mechanics in the game already to account for balance and realism.
Water in the current existing environment might be limited to your base, cites, outposts, and a few oasis for dependable sources. Other travelers such as bandits, traders, and other factions could also be a potential source of water. Even then I would expect it to be fairly easy to carry enough supplies in water to travel between cities without drastically loading up. This is even before considering the survival skill where it could have a variety of effects that it could provide. Survival could make getting water from the surroundings easier or even make the character require less water to survive.
Ok, even with all of that in mind, lets say that you didn't bring water because you didn't realize you ran out. Your survival skill is next to nothing and cannot provide you with what you really need in terms of water. That character reaches a stage where negative effects are applied. Eventually more and more effects are negatively impacting the player. After neglecting the need for water perhaps for a week or better, the character can possibly become knocked out and just being laying out on the ground.
At this point three possibilities could happen. You have another character that has water. An ally of your (who has water) aids you. Or another squad member carries that character to a source of water. Certainly at this point you would have to be intentionally neglecting water or traveling a stupidly long distance without replenishing your supply. Now lets touch on food.
A person realistically can live days or even weeks without food so in Kenshi I would expect similar. The amount would be focused more so on endurance or possibly other factors. The amount of food that you bring can be in a variety of sizes, densities, and other things. Essentially you can be carrying food that is poor quality, weighs a ton, and doesn't provide much nutritional needs for your characters. At the other end you could be carrying a protein bar that is all you need to travel between cities.
Again, the survival skill can provide a means to basically survive without going into major cities or areas that provide dependable food. I'm sure if there is a biome that has dangerous animals that attack your characters, the animals will provide your characters with plenty of food to survive with a bit of excess.
Essentially, characters should be able to survive without having to fall back on dependable sources unless some major misfortune falls upon them. Dependable sources allows for the player to generally never worry about food and water supply with the exception of maybe having enough funds to pay in cities. The amount should not be overwhelming and mostly be pocket change for someone who is around early-mid game (and doesn't attempt to spend every dime that they have).
With all that said, the NPCs should also be under these rules as well.
Oh and there is nothing stopping a mod from removing this requirement for food and water if individuals find it to be too demanding to keep track of.
Edit: There are many other things that I did not touch upon such as having animal of burden help carry these supplies and the various weights everything will have but just like any game, it can be balanced. There also could be a backpack designed specifically to carry water with weight reduction and no ill effects to combat, maybe even a boost to endurance. (Think Camelbak.)
Water in the current existing environment might be limited to your base, cites, outposts, and a few oasis for dependable sources. Other travelers such as bandits, traders, and other factions could also be a potential source of water. Even then I would expect it to be fairly easy to carry enough supplies in water to travel between cities without drastically loading up. This is even before considering the survival skill where it could have a variety of effects that it could provide. Survival could make getting water from the surroundings easier or even make the character require less water to survive.
Ok, even with all of that in mind, lets say that you didn't bring water because you didn't realize you ran out. Your survival skill is next to nothing and cannot provide you with what you really need in terms of water. That character reaches a stage where negative effects are applied. Eventually more and more effects are negatively impacting the player. After neglecting the need for water perhaps for a week or better, the character can possibly become knocked out and just being laying out on the ground.
At this point three possibilities could happen. You have another character that has water. An ally of your (who has water) aids you. Or another squad member carries that character to a source of water. Certainly at this point you would have to be intentionally neglecting water or traveling a stupidly long distance without replenishing your supply. Now lets touch on food.
A person realistically can live days or even weeks without food so in Kenshi I would expect similar. The amount would be focused more so on endurance or possibly other factors. The amount of food that you bring can be in a variety of sizes, densities, and other things. Essentially you can be carrying food that is poor quality, weighs a ton, and doesn't provide much nutritional needs for your characters. At the other end you could be carrying a protein bar that is all you need to travel between cities.
Again, the survival skill can provide a means to basically survive without going into major cities or areas that provide dependable food. I'm sure if there is a biome that has dangerous animals that attack your characters, the animals will provide your characters with plenty of food to survive with a bit of excess.
Essentially, characters should be able to survive without having to fall back on dependable sources unless some major misfortune falls upon them. Dependable sources allows for the player to generally never worry about food and water supply with the exception of maybe having enough funds to pay in cities. The amount should not be overwhelming and mostly be pocket change for someone who is around early-mid game (and doesn't attempt to spend every dime that they have).
With all that said, the NPCs should also be under these rules as well.
Oh and there is nothing stopping a mod from removing this requirement for food and water if individuals find it to be too demanding to keep track of.
Edit: There are many other things that I did not touch upon such as having animal of burden help carry these supplies and the various weights everything will have but just like any game, it can be balanced. There also could be a backpack designed specifically to carry water with weight reduction and no ill effects to combat, maybe even a boost to endurance. (Think Camelbak.)
OR!
Y'know, you can pick a realistic difficulty that would equal out to hard or normal etc. Where food and water is a necessacity to get by. And then have a non-realistic one, where... Well thats self explanetory.
Problems of both worlds solved in a matter of speaking.
Y'know, you can pick a realistic difficulty that would equal out to hard or normal etc. Where food and water is a necessacity to get by. And then have a non-realistic one, where... Well thats self explanetory.
Problems of both worlds solved in a matter of speaking.
Hmm a kenshi day because i can travel from 1 side of the map to the other in less then a day which would take me in real life months And i doubt i can survive months with 1 sip of water 
Also if time is used depending on the climats there would/should be different seasons.
which would affect production
luckely time is only dated in days for now :p and there is only a day and night cycle
ow does food has an expiration date on it. else u can have storages full of food. that will evergrow larger if the food cunsumation isnt balanced with production.
Which would bring us to a whole other type of problem in the game mechanics aka u place a unlimited stone quarry. which would mean u never have to move a settlement because u run out of resourses, or even have to buy after uve placed it. So making survival chances easier since u can buuild ur outposts everywhere
offc then it requires to redesign the game coz the quarry is already in it with unlimited resource
So this would bring us or atleast me to the conclusion: Ok my conclusion didnt satisfy me coz i thought of something i dont want
Hmm if some1 can follow this think pattern u might get to the same conclusion
I am hoping Chris does.
And i doubt i can survive months with 1 sip of water Also if time is used depending on the climats there would/should be different seasons.
which would affect production
luckely time is only dated in days for now :p and there is only a day and night cycle
ow does food has an expiration date on it. else u can have storages full of food. that will evergrow larger if the food cunsumation isnt balanced with production.
Which would bring us to a whole other type of problem in the game mechanics aka u place a unlimited stone quarry. which would mean u never have to move a settlement because u run out of resourses, or even have to buy after uve placed it. So making survival chances easier since u can buuild ur outposts everywhere
offc then it requires to redesign the game coz the quarry is already in it with unlimited resource
So this would bring us or atleast me to the conclusion: Ok my conclusion didnt satisfy me coz i thought of something i dont want
Hmm if some1 can follow this think pattern u might get to the same conclusion
I am hoping Chris does.
Last edited by Smiley on Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Mattk50
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:22 pm
- Location: A far away land where bug testing is entertainment.
We've already had discussions on the subject, its a generally better idea to use the search and bump those threads instead, in the future. This keeps the discussion consolidated.
Hunger and thirst is necessary for a variety of reasons. People need "maintenance costs" through food to add purpose to your infrastructure and limits on your city size vs production. Furthermore, it's needed for forcing a degree of trade and as a distance and seige time limit for attacking armies.
If you want none of these things, just keep playing the current version of kenshi. These are necessary mechanics. It's clear the OP has only played some shitty sim game where you have to tell your people to do every little thing like eat drink and shit, of course this is a poor implementation for kenshi, it should be mostly a background issue that characters can deal with on their own.
As a side note:
The quality of discussion on these forums has dropped a bit since it's on steam and more sales are made. This is expected, it happens with every game, but don't be one of those people lowering it.
Hunger and thirst is necessary for a variety of reasons. People need "maintenance costs" through food to add purpose to your infrastructure and limits on your city size vs production. Furthermore, it's needed for forcing a degree of trade and as a distance and seige time limit for attacking armies.
If you want none of these things, just keep playing the current version of kenshi. These are necessary mechanics. It's clear the OP has only played some shitty sim game where you have to tell your people to do every little thing like eat drink and shit, of course this is a poor implementation for kenshi, it should be mostly a background issue that characters can deal with on their own.
As a side note:
The quality of discussion on these forums has dropped a bit since it's on steam and more sales are made. This is expected, it happens with every game, but don't be one of those people lowering it.
I find your post very offensive. People have a right to express their opinion even if you disagree with it. I whole heartily agree with your point that food and water are necessary for maintenance costs (I made a similar point earlier), and people do have a problem with imagining the worse possible implementation for this game, but they are still allowed to express their concerns.Mattk50 wrote:We've already had discussions on the subject, its a generally better idea to use the search and bump those threads instead, in the future. This keeps the discussion consolidated.
Hunger and thirst is necessary for a variety of reasons. People need "maintenance costs" through food to add purpose to your infrastructure and limits on your city size vs production. Furthermore, it's needed for forcing a degree of trade and as a distance and seige time limit for attacking armies.
If you want none of these things, just keep playing the current version of kenshi. These are necessary mechanics. It's clear the OP has only played some shitty sim game where you have to tell your people to do every little thing like eat drink and shit, of course this is a poor implementation for kenshi, it should be mostly a background issue that characters can deal with on their own.
As a side note:
The quality of discussion on these forums has dropped a bit since it's on steam and more sales are made. This is expected, it happens with every game, but don't be one of those people lowering it.
Well, the map is supposed to be 400 square miles, that's 20 miles by 20 miles, and travelling 20 miles in a day (and i mean by daylight, so 10-14 hours) on foot, even walking across a desert is not unrealistic at all.Smiley wrote:Hmm a kenshi day because i can travel from 1 side of the map to the other in less then a day which would take me in real life months And i doubt i can survive months with 1 sip of water.
Ok srry i was under the impression it was bigger
Isnt that why forum mods are assigned ? To keep posts where they belong and the calm down the OP if it gets to tense?
In general to keep the forum productive. But i could be mistaken offc.
Well since noone does it ill relay the conversation to the previous topic about it.
http://www.lofigames.com/phpBB3/viewtop ... +and+drink
Isnt that why forum mods are assigned ? To keep posts where they belong and the calm down the OP if it gets to tense?
In general to keep the forum productive. But i could be mistaken offc.
Well since noone does it ill relay the conversation to the previous topic about it.
http://www.lofigames.com/phpBB3/viewtop ... +and+drink
-
Phaser Rave
- Posts: 69
- Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:24 am
- Location: Galactic Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
- Contact:
I want both. I want to be able to have saves which are hardcore survival, and other saves which are less hardcore.
The above post was written in front of a live studio audience.
-
Mattk50
- Posts: 1039
- Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:22 pm
- Location: A far away land where bug testing is entertainment.
Don't confuse my comments on quality of discussion with my argument for hunger and thirst. Theres posts in here that argue both sides well, and then there's the idiocy.Edril wrote:I find your post very offensive. People have a right to express their opinion even if you disagree with it. I whole heartily agree with your point that food and water are necessary for maintenance costs (I made a similar point earlier), and people do have a problem with imagining the worse possible implementation for this game, but they are still allowed to express their concerns.Mattk50 wrote:We've already had discussions on the subject, its a generally better idea to use the search and bump those threads instead, in the future. This keeps the discussion consolidated.
Hunger and thirst is necessary for a variety of reasons. People need "maintenance costs" through food to add purpose to your infrastructure and limits on your city size vs production. Furthermore, it's needed for forcing a degree of trade and as a distance and seige time limit for attacking armies.
If you want none of these things, just keep playing the current version of kenshi. These are necessary mechanics. It's clear the OP has only played some shitty sim game where you have to tell your people to do every little thing like eat drink and shit, of course this is a poor implementation for kenshi, it should be mostly a background issue that characters can deal with on their own.
As a side note:
The quality of discussion on these forums has dropped a bit since it's on steam and more sales are made. This is expected, it happens with every game, but don't be one of those people lowering it.
At the very least add water as a survival element. Most if not all settlements could have water wells where you can easily get water from. Also you start off with some sort of water pouch that you fill water with that lasts you for days and autodepletes itself and fills your thirst bar.
Traders could also sell water maybe. I've only had this game for a few hours but maybe there is a river you can get water from? If there isn't then maybe it could be added (just a suggestion/possibility.)
And as for food I don't really know...obviously you would start off with lots of food and similarly to water it would autodeplete over time. You would be able to get food from crops and traders. Maybe there would be food rationing of some sort.
Traders could also sell water maybe. I've only had this game for a few hours but maybe there is a river you can get water from? If there isn't then maybe it could be added (just a suggestion/possibility.)
And as for food I don't really know...obviously you would start off with lots of food and similarly to water it would autodeplete over time. You would be able to get food from crops and traders. Maybe there would be food rationing of some sort.
Who says the troops need to simply die without food?
Why not make food a simple "stat buff"?
Assembling your doods for an assault on _____, you send them to the local bar for lunch.
Eating/drinking refills their Blood much faster, and regenerates stuns faster, for a full day or more.
You could give water to someone resting in a bed to speed their recovery,
past where med kits cannot.
Don't suggest using Rum though, it literally says it makes you go blind.
Why not make food a simple "stat buff"?
Assembling your doods for an assault on _____, you send them to the local bar for lunch.
Eating/drinking refills their Blood much faster, and regenerates stuns faster, for a full day or more.
You could give water to someone resting in a bed to speed their recovery,
past where med kits cannot.
Don't suggest using Rum though, it literally says it makes you go blind.
It seems to me that food and hydration could add another customizable strategic element to the game in regards to character growth. Well fed characters work harder, fight better, and get stronger faster. Use a sliding bar to set squad/character/settlement specific rates of consumption.
In this way you could modulate squad and settlement size according to your available resources, devote more resources to food production and you could expand your population or have a well nourished small community. A food surplus then becomes both a tradable resource and something that attracts bandits, because "Hungry Bandits", are.....hungry.
This variable consumption rate would allow you to create an either egalitarian or hierarhcical society. Feed your peasants well and they will work harder for you and maybe attract immigrants to your settlement, or be a tyranical despot with starving serfs and a fat ruling class with berlin walls to keep the plebes from emmigrating; thereby the spirit of Kenshi is preserved in allowing you to customize your gameplay experience.
In this way you could modulate squad and settlement size according to your available resources, devote more resources to food production and you could expand your population or have a well nourished small community. A food surplus then becomes both a tradable resource and something that attracts bandits, because "Hungry Bandits", are.....hungry.
This variable consumption rate would allow you to create an either egalitarian or hierarhcical society. Feed your peasants well and they will work harder for you and maybe attract immigrants to your settlement, or be a tyranical despot with starving serfs and a fat ruling class with berlin walls to keep the plebes from emmigrating; thereby the spirit of Kenshi is preserved in allowing you to customize your gameplay experience.
-
- Information
-
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests