Limited and Additive Attributes

[Beckz]

So my last request for the day ^^

Limited and Additive Attributes

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Limited Attributes:
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Concerns the attributes on the right side of the stats-screen, like attack, defense, medic, engineering...

Right now you can create super-humans with all attributes at max
(if this is possible -> I never maxed out an attribute

In order to prevent this AND give more importance to classes the number of attribute-points should be limited.
I have seen this, for example in "Diggles: The Myth Of Fenris" where max 200 attribute points could be earned and each attribute had a max of 100 points.
But the points where not fix - if the max attribute points were reached and an attribute is increased 1 point an other attribute will decrease 1 point. Where attributes with many points will decrease faster (more often lose points) than those attributes with few points.

This system makes the player think twice before he sends a good fighter to work on the fields.

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Additive Attributes:
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Concerns the attributes in the middle of the stats-screen, like katana, sabre, bow...

The idea is that if you fight with a sword you get better at sword-fighting!!

For example if you fight for 50 years with a katana and then take a bow you will probably die!
But if you take a sable, which is pretty much the same as a katana you still have a chance to survive.

What I mean is, if the character fights with a katana and improves the skill about 10 points his skill with sabres should increase to - Maybe 5 points, while the skill which bows doesn't improve.

Alternatively this can be controlled over the attributes on the left side of the stats-screen, like strength, dexterity ...
If these attributes improve according to weapon type and provide bonuses for their respective weapon type.

(I thing the second one is already in use, but i would still like the first one implemented, depending on the amount of weapon types -> if you only have sword and bow at the end it is kinda meaningless )

[Tolwrath]

I don't like the idea of a glass ceiling for characters. What about applying the law of diminishing returns to the xp needed for each skill point? In virtually every good action movie, the best warrior is always hiding by not being a warrior. Even Schwarzenegger is working as a woodsman in Commando. Yet, he was still an ultimate murder machine. Think of good samurai/westerns like Yojimbo, the main characters never openly act as warriors. Even Kung Fu Hustle follows this trope.

With diminishing returns, you could make it so players either work hard to get multiple skills, or keep better track of character growths. To elaborate a bit more on the method, I think it should apply to opposite skill classes. Like divide skills into combat and... non-combat; each skill point you get in combat adds an overhead to the amount of xp needed to level up the non-combat skills, and vice versa.

Another method might be to use a practice needed method. Make it so if you don't practice/use a skill every few days, it'll start to diminish. Just remember that if players are restricted too much, it'll lead to them cheating to get passed it.

(Tbh, I don't like the idea of limiting my characters' skill growth but the'm trying to play nice and offer similar, less crippling alternatives.)

Oh and that bit about the katana user dying... you're wrong. Archers would always carry a backup melee weapon, and soldiers who were skilled at range and melee were referred to as elite. In other words, he'd be more effective than a normal archer because he wouldn't be decimated when enemies charge into melee with him.

[Beckz]

I don't like the idea of a glass ceiling for characters.
(...)
With diminishing returns, you could make it so players either work hard to get multiple skills, or keep better track of character growths.
(...)

I think I misunderstood what exactly you want, but if I get it right you want characters that can do everything and simply let them switch attack and build mode ??
Does the attributes have a max level or are they infinite ??
If first -> with my proposal a switch from combat to worker character is also possible, but he has to be retrained.
If second -> Doesn't make sense, at some point the game would just become ridiculously easy and boring (e.g. at one point a character would be able to build, produce everything instantly)

Another method might be to use a practice needed method. Make it so if you don't practice/use a skill every few days, it'll start to diminish. Just remember that if players are restricted too much, it'll lead to them cheating to get passed it.

I don't like this one, cause I have never seen a game were this works properly -> It's no fun if the game destroys your achievement and as you say it leads to cheating.

(Tbh, I don't like the idea of limiting my characters' skill growth but the'm trying to play nice and offer similar, less crippling alternatives.)

My methode is not crippling as I said the character can always improve a skill he needs, but may lose others in turn. Only preventing you from having a "Jack of all trades".
But it is no problem (with training) to make a sword master into a master engineer, than into a world class medic and back into a sword master.
The charakter can be everything, but only one at a time.

For example: If every Fighter has 100 points in Medic you can simply charge everyone into a battle and the one standing at the end heals the rest.
But if you can't be medic and master warrior at once, you got to look out for your medic and protect him in a fight.

With is far more fun.

Oh and that bit about the katana user dying... you're wrong. Archers would always carry a backup melee weapon, and soldiers who were skilled at range and melee were referred to as elite. In other words, he'd be more effective than a normal archer because he wouldn't be decimated when enemies charge into melee with him.

I'm not sure if you are sarcastic or didn't understand me.
If someone fights with a katana his entire life without EVER touching another weapon, not in combat nor in training. And then comes into situation were he has the choice between a bow and a sabre. Both weapons he has never touched before.
But because the sabre is a sword like the katana is a sword he can use it to some extend, while he doesn't have the first clue about how to draw a bow.

[Tolwrath]

The attributes do have a max level. I'm saying I don't like the idea of limiting your characters to a certain number of total skill points, especially when the main theme of the game is "through hard work and perseverance a nobody can become truly great". Limits on the max level for a skill is one thing, but to limit the total number of skill points a character can get is another. It's like saying a person can only have one passion. So yes, they should be able to become good at building and good at fighting, through hard work and perseverance.

You say it's no fun if a game destroys your achievements, but you suggested a system where increasing a combat skill would actually decrease a non-combat skill with a 1:1 ratio. If you're going to take a skill away then you at least have to make it possible for the character to easily relearn it.

As for the katana guy, I'm saying he'd take both weapons, not just one. Plus if he's got a ton of katana experience, then he's probably at least seen archers do their thing, if not been a victim to it.

[Beckz]

ok, know I get it

still I like my version better, where you can only max a few attributes at one time

well, let's see what others think

[RebelMonarch]

I understand where you're coming from Beckz but you're overlooking that, ideally, fighting forces in the game will need to be specialized in order to be effective. Using your example, it won't be reasonable to try to have all your master soldiers be master medics, too. In fact, it'll probably be quite difficult to do so.

I think the game will be fine if it progresses as it is currently doing, not limiting what you *can* do but what you *should* do. Players who want their characters to all be great soldier/engineer/medics will be able to do that but will have a really hard time getting there. I like Tolwrath's suggestion of diminishing returns because, at high levels of expertise in a task, the difference in competency between two people can be quite small while still being enough of a difference to matter. That is the kind of nuance that would not only be nice to see in the game, but fit quite well.

I also think that skills should degrade over time. If you have a master soldier who just spends his days farming now then after enough time of doing so his skills should begin to lower (slowly) unless he spends his evenings practicing to stay sharp (pun unavoidable).

[Tolwrath]

I think the master soldier who is also a master medic was a counter example. He/She was saying it's not fun/realistic to not have to worry about keeping your medics alive due to the way that the current system let's everyone be a soldier and a medic so easily.

[RebelMonarch]

Oops. Well, I still stand by my position even if they were only spoken after a misunderstanding and they seem a bit redundant now.

Thanks for clarifying Tolwrath!