balance suggestions in regards to cats(money)

[xhuggels]

I have realized something about the economy side of kenshi. When it comes to cats(kenshi currency) there are a few problems you find later in the game. See you start with no money, and up till you have a self sufficient base and stations to craft weapons, clothes and armor, money plays a vital role in...well everything you do. That is how it should be and i have no complaint there.

HOWEVER, once you do have a self sufficient base with all the blueprints and can make all the best weapons and armor with raw materials you mined or farmed yourself, money comes in by the tens of thousands, as it should...BUT YOU DONT HAVE ANYTHING TO USE IT ON...
Hence once you have a nice thing going there is no real purpose to being rich beyond description.

This is a problem, since i believe the way to make kenshi great is to have all features of the game, well...feature, and not just at the start or at the end but all the time.

There are a lot of features you can just skip and never even bother with in this game. For instance talking to traders or just working through the counter, talking to police chief or just dropping thugs in the prisons....(off topic but those can be looked at too. You should not be able to get into the shop counter without using the loot ability, and when you do you should get in trouble if someone sees you, and you should also not pay for what you loot, but that will be a feature later i know)
Anyways on topic again. Other features that can be ignored completely is buying buildings in towns. I get that there is a purpose to it, but it needs to feature more than just a safe place to put your first tech lab.

My suggestions to fix this money and building problem?

Well, first off the fast travel system that should appear along with the new world map, if it is a transport system like a carriage or a boat trip it should not be free. Im thinking 1000 cats per character should suffice. That way the smaller your crew the cheaper it will be. Also if you want to siege a town or move your base with a large population, it will be the long walk to freedom or a larger than life amount of cats. It will make a small team as viable as a large one.

The other part of my thoughts are this. In real life, if you have a shop, you pat rent for the building and you pay for a license to sell whatever you are selling. It should be the same in kenshi. I believe Trade caravans should not come to our bases, nor should we be allowed to build shop counters within our bases. If you want a shop, you need to buy a building in town, along with that every day there will be a certain amount taken from your cash for each shop counter you put in there. I would suggest 1000 cats again. The larger your shop the more you pay to run it. I also think shop counters should not be accessible to trade caravans or the town population if you dont have a man assigned to operate it. This honesty system where the trade caravans just come and take stuff and leave money without anyone making sure they dont steal is a little unrealistic. We should also be able to sell the gear we make at our shop counters.

The bottom line is we need something to do with cats even late in the game when we have a large base.
On the sideline, i also believe a third option would be to have the very top notch gear be very rare and only buy-able at shops in town. we should not be able to make the very best weapons out there. There should be very rare weapons out there that are hard to find.

well thats all. tell me what you guys think

[Chinsei]

Fast travel? >.< ...while no doubt optional just no -.- Kenshi is meant ot be a hard game, which is what makes it cool.

Money contrary to the capitalist belief system isnt the center of the universe. nothing force you to become completely self sufficent. if you don't want to be then don't. (similar to using or not a fast travel system).

If durability became a thing an there were more requirements for crops and ores, which i assume eventually more economic diveristy wil lexist for valid trading. then there will be a place where money eventually becomes something potentially important.

but i don't think it should become like every other game where money is the end all. Money is a barter tool. its just an easier way to trade one item for another. which is fairer . then bartering.

If you own the building you don't pay rent. and this is a feudal world. theres no need for a 'liscence' . -.-

[xhuggels]

there will be a fast travel system that comes with the new world map. its been stated, but it wont be a load screen like you get with most RPGs, and that is a good thing. it will just be a faster way to get around since the new map will be 335.9 square miles compare to the current 14.3 square miles. good luck not having a faster way to get around a map that large, but that wasnt the topic of conversation.

The main thing is money is a system set in place non the less, and its purpose falling away at some stage is almost like the purpose of swords or beds or medkits or anything else falling away at some stage. its not like say mining or farming or weapon crafting, which is optional since you could also buy weapons and clothing, removing the need for resource gathering and crafting. Money is as important a feature as the sword, since your entire economy is based on the purpose of making money.

[philthymcnasty]

What you do when you have a lot of money, is buy houses in the various towns, put beds in them, and put a squad in that town.

this creates a rescue system for you. It also gets the squads more action.

You can also hire mercenaries for your outposts for defense, and later on slaves for your labor.

So when more features come in, there will be more use for the money.

but having safe houses, and squads for each safe house, will make travel safer, as you can get rescued if things get bad.

Though eventually, you will have to pay taxes too.

[swillo]

I'm looking forward to food and water needs. Then cats will be more scarce. It will also make bigger squads more difficult to maintain.

Having extra money will give you a backup in case your farms run short or when you are out of your base and run out of food.

[philthymcnasty]

I am wondering how town conquest will play into everything.

We may be able to build into a town, once we conquer it. When that happens, do we gain control of the people then?

That would be quite interesting, to put in wells and farms outside of town, and to add an extra set of walls and defensive emplacements too.

[Set]

If you have an outpost you can hire NPCs to protect it

[xhuggels]

If you have an outpost you can hire NPCs to protect it

but why would you hire 20-25 skill level when your own guys are 40+
i know you can but it doesnt change anything really...

[Chompster]

If you have an outpost you can hire NPCs to protect it

but why would you hire 20-25 skill level when your own guys are 40+
i know you can but it doesnt change anything really...

Because quantity over quality. Sometimes you need a lot of people in a hurry and spending hours(real life, days/months in-game) training your guys isn't as efficient as just throwing down a wad(or pile) of cats for a group of mercs.

As for your whole "all the cool stuff needs to be limited to towns" i say a big ol' HELL NO. It makes absolutely no sense to arbitrarily limit something to a town just for the sake of money sinks. While i am all for money sinks, they also have to make sense and not involve handwavium-magics-bullshit for the sake of.

And as to the fast travel, any chance of a link and or quote? I'v never heard this being the case and while i get that the new map will be big it'd be pretty disappointing to see put in. "well just don't use it if you don't like it!" Ah.. well you see there's such a thing as temptation and some saying about taking the path of least resistance. Unless it'd be disable..able..? I'd have a really hard time not using it to get somewhere faster(especially if I'm in a rush or irritated).

[Chinsei]

as far as mercs / recruits/ large groups go i hope theres alot more diversity in their skill levels i don't think just because you pay 2,000 cats for a merc he should be 'skilled' there are alot of people who appear strong, charge you alot an barely know how to fight at all :p in the capitalist world we usually call them gangsters

after all groups tend to have a wide diversity in skill levels. but i hope if they have upkeep theres a valid budget sheet somewhere that we can look over an modify.

[xhuggels]

IAh.. well you see there's such a thing as temptation and some saying about taking the path of least resistance. Unless it'd be disable..able..? I'd have a really hard time not using it to get somewhere faster(especially if I'm in a rush or irritated).

hmmmm, if you are playing with increase death ratio and bandit looting you turned on, perhaps the path of least resistance is the smart one(and the only valid one for that matter)
Im not sure about where i read it though. You can check the steam page to see if its there somewhere.

Also, as the game is now on normal time it takes you an hour to run from one side to the other(depending on your athletics ability, but im taking into account it is at least 40-50)
Once the map is 23.5 times bigger, do you really wanna take 2 full days (real time) to get from one side to the other?

[Chinsei]

Yes, because the fun is in the journey. personally i usually don't run everywhere i usually have my characters walk . but i like the journey i like the risk of some group attackign an killing me o.o as i'm going don't get me wrong as your average gamer i'd be yelling at the screen as they killed me but still! the game should be hard. it kinda lame how games take the challenge out an make them 'easier' . games should be challenging.

[philthymcnasty]

Yes, because the fun is in the journey. personally i usually don't run everywhere i usually have my characters walk . but i like the journey i like the risk of some group attackign an killing me o.o as i'm going don't get me wrong as your average gamer i'd be yelling at the screen as they killed me but still! the game should be hard. it kinda lame how games take the challenge out an make them 'easier' . games should be challenging.

how do you level athletics then?

[xhuggels]

how do you level athletics then?

a high athletics skill would make the game easier as then you can easily outrun any enemy thus making the risk just an illusion

[Chinsei]

Yes, because the fun is in the journey. personally i usually don't run everywhere i usually have my characters walk . but i like the journey i like the risk of some group attackign an killing me o.o as i'm going don't get me wrong as your average gamer i'd be yelling at the screen as they killed me but still! the game should be hard. it kinda lame how games take the challenge out an make them 'easier' . games should be challenging.

how do you level athletics then?

usually i don't go out of my way to raise any skill outside of just playing normally, i will say that when i start i do run around the town a little bit both to kinda scout if there are enemies near and to improve athletics , but when stamina gets added things like that will also be somewhat needed.

but one could argue that the character in question is simply preparing himself for the journey in question . after all it'd be silly to go wandering into the desert without atleast trying to be healthy.

but after that initial 4 or 5 laps around the town i usually don't run unless someone , or something starts chasing me. which at the moment isn't a big deal since endurance/stamina isn't a thing but when it becomes a thing using stealth will probably be a bit more important.

this was also before the AI had any real line of sight.

how do you level athletics then?

a high athletics skill would make the game easier as then you can easily outrun any enemy thus making the risk just an illusion

i can't speak for your experience but every time my characters fight the AI aims for their legs o.o whether this is some kind of intentional aiming that the player doesn't have yet or not i dunno. i just know that atleast the first 3 hits are usually on the legs, with the next being the sword arm.

my characters also never seem to be able to win fights without injury. i don't know if its that i just don't usually micro manage enough or not. i mean at the start i usually try to micro a bit with the 'block' ability triggering it so my character can block , an then disabling it when i think theres an opening for my character to attack.

but they always seem to get hit. personally i wish there were more ways to have them train defense.

but i only use skills when i need to usually i don't 'intentionally' get someone injured to heal them. an i don't usually run unless i have/need to.

[xhuggels]

my characters also never seem to be able to win fights without injury. i don't know if its that i just don't usually micro manage enough or not. i mean at the start i usually try to micro a bit with the 'block' ability triggering it so my character can block , an then disabling it when i think theres an opening for my character to attack.

the block ability only really helps at the very start of the game, and after that with heavy weapons or sabres. what you really want is a high dexterity skill, trained best by using wakizashe, ninja blades and light katanas. added to that you want a decent strength skill too since it helps speed in general in a lesser way. A character with 20 strength and 30+ dexterity wielding a light katana (my personal favorite among the swords) will quickly train his defense and attack skills. My character with 15 strength and 30 dexterity, wearing a monks robe, Gi Pants and sandals, and wielding an edge 5 light katana can knock down an entire dust bandit squad. Im not even kidding he seems so fast that he would do a double attack as an enemy sword is descending upon him, and get his sword back in time to block. Im not too sure whether or not weapons have different attack ranges yet, but with or without it speed is the most important thing in kenshi. It is better to wear cloth and sandals and never get hit than it is wearing armor and boots and tank the damage

[bk3000]

Yeah we need some late game money sinks.

One money sink they could implement is making you continually pay your people (anyone you had to hire rather than start with). I wouldn't want them to leave per say, but they stop working or taking orders til you pay them (anyone you start with would continue working/following orders so you have a chance to get more money).

It should only be a few cats per day, per person and probably higher the more skilled they are. But that would be enough that you need the money to maintain a faction - especially a large one. You have to pay to hire people, but it always seemed odd that you essentially seem to be hiring them for life with so little money.

Another use for large stacks of money might be buying small plots of land that belong to someone else (unless you want to go to war over it). You might be saving up some money to expand your base or build another in an ideal location. Where as right now you can't build close to cities, you should be allowed to build as long as you buy the land. But the closer you get to a city, the more expensive the land becomes.

[Hatsune_Neko]

they added a money sink.
called mercenaries store., least the first of many maybe?

[philthymcnasty]

Yeah we need some late game money sinks.

One money sink they could implement is making you continually pay your people (anyone you had to hire rather than start with). I wouldn't want them to leave per say, but they stop working or taking orders til you pay them (anyone you start with would continue working/following orders so you have a chance to get more money).

It should only be a few cats per day, per person and probably higher the more skilled they are. But that would be enough that you need the money to maintain a faction - especially a large one. You have to pay to hire people, but it always seemed odd that you essentially seem to be hiring them for life with so little money.

Another use for large stacks of money might be buying small plots of land that belong to someone else (unless you want to go to war over it). You might be saving up some money to expand your base or build another in an ideal location. Where as right now you can't build close to cities, you should be allowed to build as long as you buy the land. But the closer you get to a city, the more expensive the land becomes.

I have mixed feelings on this. Especially for early on in the game. For dudes that have little money. More importantly, it would make rescuing slaves a bigger thing then it should be, as they will join out of desperation.

Taxes are supposed to be a thing for outposts that are close to a town, or in faction borders.

The thing about paying your faction, is if this is based on samurai clans, then they are automatically permanently loyal, once you give them a sword. Otherwise, they will have to work off the cost of all that equipment and training they receive from me. Cause some guys go from level 0 in some skills to 80 real fast.

One thing that bugs me, is that areas that are prospected, should be marked on the map. If this happens, then we can pay a guild to mark good locations on our map, for when we want to make a good base. Just make sure this information is expensive.

Faction bribing should also be a thing.

Like right now, the cops hate me for killing all those people in the holy empire. Frankly, the cops should mind their own damned business, but what ever.

But being able to bribe the cops should be a thing. Like making a donation to the cops to let them know you are going to attack another faction. More for them to keep it a secret.

Ransoms should also be a thing. Like if you get KO'd by another faction, they should charge a ransom for your safe return.

I also think the adventuress guild will charge money if you use the rescue button and no one else is there to help you. That is a cool and awesome feature.

I think there should also be rental options in towns. Do you really need a research bench? why not rent one in the towns? that would free up space in the outpost, and power.

then there are generators. That will eat a lot of money when it becomes a thing. Fuel is going to be rare. So chances are, we are going to either have to have fuel shipped in, or water. and the only ones who can do that, are the trades guild. So we may have to get into expensive contracts in the future.

Buying slaves for labor will be interesting. Will those show up in a squad, or will they be npcs that we can boss around? expendable npcs....There is a corpse furnace in the slaver camp for some reason.

[bk3000]

I have mixed feelings on this. Especially for early on in the game. For dudes that have little money. More importantly, it would make rescuing slaves a bigger thing then it should be, as they will join out of desperation.

Taxes are supposed to be a thing for outposts that are close to a town, or in faction borders.

The thing about paying your faction, is if this is based on samurai clans, then they are automatically permanently loyal, once you give them a sword. Otherwise, they will have to work off the cost of all that equipment and training they receive from me. Cause some guys go from level 0 in some skills to 80 real fast.

One thing that bugs me, is that areas that are prospected, should be marked on the map. If this happens, then we can pay a guild to mark good locations on our map, for when we want to make a good base. Just make sure this information is expensive.

Faction bribing should also be a thing.

Like right now, the cops hate me for killing all those people in the holy empire. Frankly, the cops should mind their own damned business, but what ever.

But being able to bribe the cops should be a thing. Like making a donation to the cops to let them know you are going to attack another faction. More for them to keep it a secret.

Ransoms should also be a thing. Like if you get KO'd by another faction, they should charge a ransom for your safe return.

I also think the adventuress guild will charge money if you use the rescue button and no one else is there to help you. That is a cool and awesome feature.

I think there should also be rental options in towns. Do you really need a research bench? why not rent one in the towns? that would free up space in the outpost, and power.

then there are generators. That will eat a lot of money when it becomes a thing. Fuel is going to be rare. So chances are, we are going to either have to have fuel shipped in, or water. and the only ones who can do that, are the trades guild. So we may have to get into expensive contracts in the future.

Buying slaves for labor will be interesting. Will those show up in a squad, or will they be npcs that we can boss around? expendable npcs....There is a corpse furnace in the slaver camp for some reason.

Early game wise I think that cats should be a little (not a lot) easier to come by. Especially once they put in hunger. Probably the thing to do would be raising the value of the trash loot from bandits. As for the lower selling price of uniform items... I don't know if that is a good idea as that REALLY hurts the new guy when his lucky break ends up getting him about nothing.

A few cats a day (or maybe per week etc) shouldn't hurt a new guy too much because the new guy won't have many squad members yet. The main reason for having it would be so that the late game guy can't just hide eternally behind his walls. You gotta earn to keep it going which of course is pretty accurate.

Now though with the oil talk you have given me a new idea - a generator turned by people continually walking around it to turn the wheel. It would be an option but not very practical except for those with an excess of labor. I'd like to see those in slaver camps especially!