Lo-Fi Games

What makes beasts frustrating to kill is because they '''cannot stagger'''. And accompanying that is their ability to deal out AoE attacks. But worst of all...their attacks are unblockable/undodgable.

So, what I'd like to suggest is that animals should keep their non-staggering perk, but balance their combat by making their attacks only land on 'one' person at a time. They need to have a weakness somehow.

And besides, if Beak Things will only peck down and Dogs can only bite, how would those attacks land on one person at a time?

i think the current system will make more sense when we have ranged combat and stuff, after all IRL who hunts with a sword. imagine sneaking towards a hoard of beak things before shooting them in the head from a distance.

Keep in mind that they cant block your attacks either.

Mattk50 wrote:i think the current system will make more sense when we have ranged combat and stuff, after all IRL who hunts with a sword. imagine sneaking towards a hoard of beak things before shooting them in the head from a distance.

Keep in mind that they cant block your attacks either.

While perhaps not swords.

People used to hunt with spears, and clubs. and clubs aer probably the closest thing to a 'sword' you could get before the discovery of melting things down an shaping them.

so... anyone who doesn't have 'ranged' weapons would hunt with whatever they had avalable.

in the world of Kenshi were sword combat is obviously a mainstay . theres no reason for them not to use them.

Mattk50 wrote:i think the current system will make more sense when we have ranged combat and stuff, after all IRL who hunts with a sword. imagine sneaking towards a hoard of beak things before shooting them in the head from a distance.

Keep in mind that they cant block your attacks either.

Maybe you're right about the ranged thing, but that's only in due time.

Still, don't you think their attacks should make sense at least?

its not like you cant use swords as you can right now, it just means neither you or the animal can block. Spears would be awesome.

TacticalMaster wrote:

Mattk50 wrote:i think the current system will make more sense when we have ranged combat and stuff, after all IRL who hunts with a sword. imagine sneaking towards a hoard of beak things before shooting them in the head from a distance.

Keep in mind that they cant block your attacks either.

Maybe you're right about the ranged thing, but that's only in due time.

Still, don't you think their attacks should make sense at least?

You might be right about some of the animal AOEs being too big, dogs for example should probably only be "biting" one person at a time. I'd love if they were really good at attacking while chasing. Its not like humanoids don't do AOE attacks though, and for stuff like beak things and leviathans the AOE really makes a lot of sense. Even bulls it makes sense for them to be able to "charge" and hit multiple people.

If anything it needs to be reduced on non heavy weapons. I had a Holy Empire guy attack me in town while my people were grouped up swapping gear and he hit like 8 people with one swing.

They 2 or maybe 3 nearest, sure. But people 3 people deep and back? No.

The idea that a sword will strike multiple opponents in a swing is highly plausible.

The idea that a dog's bite will go through multiple opponents in one chomp is fairly surreal, and supposedly magically augmented.

Berzerker Jay wrote:The idea that a sword will strike multiple opponents in a swing is highly plausible.

The idea that a dog's bite will go through multiple opponents in one chomp is fairly surreal, and supposedly magically augmented.

To a limit. A a sword isn't going to hit a row of people 3 people wide and deep without bisecting everyone. I'm fine with cleaving within reason, but that's a bit much. I don't think there is a limit at the moment. That is not "highly plausible"

Mattk50 wrote:You might be right about some of the animal AOEs being too big, dogs for example should probably only be "biting" one person at a time. I'd love if they were really good at attacking while chasing. Its not like humanoids don't do AOE attacks though, and for stuff like beak things and leviathans the AOE really makes a lot of sense. Even bulls it makes sense for them to be able to "charge" and hit multiple people.

But a Beak Thing's attack is just "pecking". And that can only hit one person, can it?

TacticalMaster wrote:

Mattk50 wrote:You might be right about some of the animal AOEs being too big, dogs for example should probably only be "biting" one person at a time. I'd love if they were really good at attacking while chasing. Its not like humanoids don't do AOE attacks though, and for stuff like beak things and leviathans the AOE really makes a lot of sense. Even bulls it makes sense for them to be able to "charge" and hit multiple people.

But a Beak Thing's attack is just "pecking". And that can only hit one person, can it?

It's beak is literally the size of a torso, if a katana can hit multiple people with one swing then a massive beak on a giraffe sized neck sure can.

Mattk50 wrote:

TacticalMaster wrote:

Mattk50 wrote:You might be right about some of the animal AOEs being too big, dogs for example should probably only be "biting" one person at a time. I'd love if they were really good at attacking while chasing. Its not like humanoids don't do AOE attacks though, and for stuff like beak things and leviathans the AOE really makes a lot of sense. Even bulls it makes sense for them to be able to "charge" and hit multiple people.

But a Beak Thing's attack is just "pecking". And that can only hit one person, can it?

It's beak is literally the size of a torso, if a katana can hit multiple people with one swing then a massive beak on a giraffe sized neck sure can.

I'd imagine it's somewhere in the middle. They are large, but they attack in a downwards peck if I recall. A sword swings in a much wider arc.

ive notice how lethal these animals can be. particularly the dogs because the attack very quickly. Even my strongest characters a given a run for their money unless I have enough people with me to split the dog attacks. Pretty much you need to use a fast attacking weapon with a solid Dexerity and attack score to really get at them. I was humbled and astonished when 5 of my strongest were really messed up from fighting a nest of dogs (I ran through by accident).

Their attacks should be blockable like back in .70. It's kinda immersion breaking when you'll get even stronger and be able to handle 100kg and run at 27 mph (one mph less than the world's fastest record) for long distances no problem but can't generate enough force or speed to repel a headbutt from a beak thing or a dog bite.

I thought it was just that I was using a 58 KG fragment axe and was to slow to blow, blocking animals would be a good think.

After reading this, The only thing I really think needs to be done is 'dodging' has to be finished and implemented for both animals and humanoids.

Can't really 'block' an animal attack (well most of them) since they aren't really fencing.

You absolutely could dodge their attacks though, and vice versa.

I'd prefer the dev's to concentrate on the dodge mechanic first , since this would effectively fix itself once the mechanic is implemented.

One thing is for sure, it is absolutely frustrating that my characters will even waste their time trying to block attacks from animals when blocking is impossible. This puts us at perhaps the greatest disadvantage against them.

If that were fixed it might be somewhat more balanced, though I do agree we should be able to block animal attacks. Beaked Thing moves in for the attack and it catches the sharp of your blade instead and backs off. Same with a dog. If you had a sword in your hand you could plausibly keep a dog at bay with it.

I've always thought that if and when barehanded combat is implimented (martial arts) then I would think damage would be taken when the attacks are blocked by certain weapons. A club might not do much damage, but if your punch is blocked by a katana you should be bleeding a little. In this case I think the same might apply to the animals. In that case I think it would be well balanced.

There are only a couple of animals that are unblockable. Beak things, and from what I've heard, Goats, but I havn't confirmed goats for myself. Dogs, River raptors, and bulls are all blockable. (I havn't played with the spiders yet...) I suspect that not being able to block beak things is a bug, but I havn't been able to get any confirmation of whether it is a bug or a feature...

I have a unit that has 40 in attack, defense, and 50~ toughness, using a low end katana, she can take out a pack of dogs without issue.

The AOE on things like dogs, does not make much sense though. That's a very long standing complaint.
The beak thing's AOE is sort of understandable though, as it looks more like a wrecking ball swat than a bite.. Could just be animation limitations though.

Zeal wrote:There are only a couple of animals that are unblockable. Beak things, and from what I've heard, Goats, but I havn't confirmed goats for myself. Dogs, River raptors, and bulls are all blockable. (I havn't played with the spiders yet...) I suspect that not being able to block beak things is a bug, but I havn't been able to get any confirmation of whether it is a bug or a feature...

Dogs, Raptors and Bulls aren't blockable for me.

The constant stagger is an issue too. I have a skeleton with 45+ on all his stats/fighting abilities and he has trouble taking down a single dog. Beakthings are fairly easy unless your taking on a group though, you just manually dodge their attacks by waiting until you see your character switch to a 'block' stance and have him run left/right of the beakthing attack and it will miss. Only gets difficult to do when there is more than 2 of them, though I have taken on 5 at once before, took heavy damage though and considering their hides aren't worth that much isn't really worth doing.

ceridan wrote:Dogs, Raptors and Bulls aren't blockable for me.

The constant stagger is an issue too. I have a skeleton with 45+ on all his stats/fighting abilities and he has trouble taking down a single dog. Beakthings are fairly easy unless your taking on a group though, you just manually dodge their attacks by waiting until you see your character switch to a 'block' stance and have him run left/right of the beakthing attack and it will miss. Only gets difficult to do when there is more than 2 of them, though I have taken on 5 at once before, took heavy damage though and considering their hides aren't worth that much isn't really worth doing.

I feel like animals actually have a much higher attack speed than they possibly should, but at the same time i worry about reducing it. Their core stats are pretty minimal as it is. Without that attack speed, they'd be pretty petty unit, and they'd be rendered obsolete quite quickly.

I know in the past though they said that dogs weren't meant to be a huge danger.

Why you can't block them could be a number of factors. Block speed being your largest one.

My unit with 43 defense can block dogs okay-ish, while putting her on block gives her about a 100% chance to block a single dog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiCvygZXgAI

They certainly are blockable. Bulls, river raptors aswell. My test against a beakthing was about 50~ defense on block at the time, and i was unable to ever block them, but others have said they have been able to with a higher blocking ability.

But getting back on topic, I believe reducing the attack range of animals attacks according to their type and attack type should be the first approach. Dogs should not have AOE. Bulls should have AOE with their charge attack, and based on watching them, their normal attack seems about right aswell. So not much to adjust there. Beak things Could probably use a slight adjustment, as it's easy to get hit when you're just off to the side of their neck when they attack. (you don't actually get touched by even the neck, and you still take damage). I like the idea of the wrecking ball attack though. If they had different attacks, like a horizontal swing, that hit more enemies but did less damage, while retaining that vertical "smite" as an alternative attack, with a smaller aoe range, it would make things a bit more interesting.

I enthusiastically second the call for more diversity to the attacks animals have. It would make fighting beaked things a lot less predictable, as right now it is fairly easy to take on a lone beaked thing regardless of skill level just based on the technique that was described above.