Fatigue in Kenshi

[Espa]

I was thinking about this earlier, how it might increase difficulty and also make the world more life-like if your characters, and ALL NPCs, had a Fatigue bar that would slowly degrade and lower stats, make characters' slower if not fixed, and also cause them to pass out if they did not find a bed eventually.

For NPCs, this would make all of them have a script that to seek a bed in the night time, thus reducing the amount of guards and such at night-time, while other creatures would have their sleep cycle in the day-time. Essentially, this would allow guards to be at full post starting at 6AM to Midnight, then it would dramatically reduce as most guards would head to their barracks, civilians to their residencies or shops, and creatures to find a nice cozy spot to sleep. - And outside city NPCs to set up their own campfire camps and rest on mats.

For Player Characters, it would increase difficulty and also give a more realistic approach to the game, and more than that, it would make the game feel more dynamic as you could adapt a lifestyle to live at night and wander at night. . But there would be dangers that would be night-time only, such as creatures and groups of ronins/night bandits.

I see Four modes:

Well-Rested (Lasts 6 in game hours) Stats +1
Rested (Lasts 12 in-game hours) Stats normal
Tired (Lasts 6 in-game hours) Stats -3
Exhausted (Lasts 3 in-game hours) Stats cut in half - After the three hours are up, character automatically passes out for 1 in-game hour to go to the beginning of the Tired status.

(If we decided to make a bar that resembled Hunger, then the numbers would exist as follows)
Well-Rested 400 - (With each hour roughly reducing the status by 15 points.)
Rested 300 - (With each hour roughly reducing the status by 7.5 points)
Tired 200 - (With each hour roughly reducing the status by 15 points)
Exhausted 100 (With each hour roughly reducing the status by 30 points)

I could see this really improving on the management of your individuals, as well as how you plan your actions. Obviously, bandits and slavers, and etc., would have to make camps at night-time that you could visibly see if you were passing through the night. - While other beings, such as Skeletons, never require sleep - OR have their sleep cycle reversed to daytime.

Sleeping would require at least 6 hours of sleep from the Tired status to go back to Well-Rested, and only 3 hours to become Rested.

Also, if you own your own residence or own Faction City, when your characters would hit the Exhausted status, it would be great if the script led them to automatically head for their bed, unless you were in control of that character at the time and told them to do otherwise.

[Ownizuka]

I really like the concept. It would certainly make things a lot more dynamic.

However, I think something would have to be added for Skeletons as with no hunger and no fatigue, things would start to become unbalanced. Perhaps they could require some kind of upkeep, like machine oil, without which they would accumulate the same stat penalties. So, basically, they would still make the best workers as they could work forever without requiring sleep but it would cost money to keep them going.

[Espa]

I really like the concept. It would certainly make things a lot more dynamic.

However, I think something would have to be added for Skeletons as with no hunger and no fatigue, things would start to become unbalanced. Perhaps they could require some kind of upkeep, like machine oil, without which they would accumulate the same stat penalties. So, basically, they would still make the best workers as they could work forever without requiring sleep but it would cost money to keep them going.

Not a bad idea! I think constant repair would be cool, or having to keep them fueled. . But with enough technology, it might be possible to build an upgrade for them - Such as Solar Panels.

[Espa]

Side-Note:

I think if you own your own residence or own Faction City, when your characters would hit the Exhausted status, it would be great if the script led them to automatically head for their bed, unless you were in control of that character at the time and told them to do otherwise.

[Ownizuka]

Side-Note:

I think if you own your own residence or own Faction City, when your characters would hit the Exhausted status, it would be great if the script led them to automatically head for their bed, unless you were in control of that character at the time and told them to do otherwise.

Definitely. Perhaps just a checkbox option for each character to auto-sleep. Maybe even the option to set the threshold at 'Tired' or 'Exhausted' to prioritize the efficiency of different jobs.

[Berzerker Jay]

In extreme situations people go days without sleep. I've worked 16 hour shifts back to back where I didn't get to sleep at all in between.

I didn't pass out at the 24 hour mark.

I think this could be fairly unrealistic and frustrating. If there wasn't an option to turn it off, I'd probably stop bothering with the game. There'd be too much time spent dithering around when you already need your characters to perform so much micro-management.

If there's a toggle to turn it off, I wouldn't protest it. If not, I doubt the game will be fun any more. I certainly wouldn't bother with building a very large faction, so the game becomes very limited in scope.

[Berzerker Jay]

Not saying fatigue can't be an interesting addition to the game, but that as described here it would unnecessarily hinder what can be done with the game. Instead of building up a squad to go out and slay bandits, maybe take something over, it becomes a sleeping, eating, and drinking simulator.

Think about it. One only gets twelve hours in game, or twelve minutes at top speed, before stats take a hit, and then only double that before the character randomly passes out on the spot. Because all characters in Kenshi have narcolepsy?

[Espa]

Not saying fatigue can't be an interesting addition to the game, but that as described here it would unnecessarily hinder what can be done with the game. Instead of building up a squad to go out and slay bandits, maybe take something over, it becomes a sleeping, eating, and drinking simulator.

Think about it. One only gets twelve hours in game, or twelve minutes at top speed, before stats take a hit, and then only double that before the character randomly passes out on the spot. Because all characters in Kenshi have narcolepsy?

I see where you're coming from and I understand the great feats of humankind. I've got about 3.5 days without sleep and started hallucinating before I finally succumbed.

However, the Feature Request is trying to bridge the gap of realism for players characters and all NPCs. The game would allow you to go 24 hours of mostly normal behavior, but after the next 3 hours, if not tended to, they would pass out for 1 hour and then wake up at the 18th Hour mark (Beginning of Tired phase) so different actions may be taken.

There's a lot more discussion going on in the Steam Discussions. I'll link.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/233860/di ... 672906638/

[Espa]

You've also got to remember that this is a harsh-as-hell living life style that these people have to deal with. It's no air-conditioned rooms, or nice meals, or technology. . It's pretty damn pioneering with a lot of people who want to kill you, enslave you, judge you harshly, or just give no fucks that you exist.

This is the worst kind of living. It's like trying to eek out an existence in the Fallout realm on Hard Mode, Survival Mode (Without VATS or any tricks). Hellacious.

So. . Attempting to stay up 27 hours all while doing back-breaking activities would plain be the worst feeling possible.

[Espa]

Not saying fatigue can't be an interesting addition to the game, but that as described here it would unnecessarily hinder what can be done with the game. Instead of building up a squad to go out and slay bandits, maybe take something over, it becomes a sleeping, eating, and drinking simulator.

Think about it. One only gets twelve hours in game, or twelve minutes at top speed, before stats take a hit, and then only double that before the character randomly passes out on the spot. Because all characters in Kenshi have narcolepsy?

Actually, they can go 18 hours without taking a hit.

Tired status takes over at the 18th hour and it's only a -3 in stats. Nothing too harsh.

Exhausted status (After the 24th mark) will severely hinder you and make your powerful character a weakling.

[Espa]

Rebumping in hopes of a Dev Contact.

There's been a lot more discussion on the Steam Discussion site, but if this is where they desire to see their requests, I am all-in with my chips.

[Ownizuka]

Another rebump from me as well.

I've had this in the back of my mind while playing the past day or so and I think it would be a great addition. Overall, I think the impact would be minimal on squad/base management (especially with an auto-sleep feature) and it would make the rest of the game so much more dynamic. Where as hunger is somewhat of a nuisance feature that really only has the effect of less inventory space and more things to build that would otherwise have no purpose, I think fatigue would actually make the game more strategic and immersive.

Haven't seen it even mentioned by the Dev's though; so, at the very least, it's a long way off.

Here's hoping.

[Espa]

I've spoken to Neko and Lumi and they both said that it was removed for unknown reasons, but they couldn't verify the exact 'why'. It's not featured on the Development Roadmap or as a Luxury feature either. . So I'm not really sure why it was scrapped in the first place.

I'm going to copy over a post I commented last night on the Steam Discussion that proves a lot of my points why this would ENHANCE gameplay by a million margins and breathe new life into the game.

I do think that if it's been removed from the board, it should be rethought for various reasons. The game is punishing as is, yes, but if we truly want to play a hardcore free-roaming game that is simulating life in a harsh post-apocalyptic manner, Fatigue (Or Stamina) has got to be one of the limitations that characters have.

Of course it would take a new AI project to make the NPCs outside of cities behave in a way that balances with the player (Such as needing shelter for the night), but I believe it would be wholly worth it for the appeal of seeing NPCs behave as we do and have the same restrictions. - Also, it would be totally worth it for a small-group playstyle that shifts their activities for the night as Ninjas, Thieves, or even Bounty Hunters that could creep up on the sleeping NPCs and ambush the hell out of them.

If it were introduced into the game, it would not only incentivize the construction of your own faction town if you wanted a larger crew (Simply because towns aren't going to be able to host 15-20+ or more characters to sleep, and also it would be hella expensive to go this route.), but it would be the ONLY way to actually do so.

-It would create new hardship and/or possibilities for the player to manage their characters. (For example, if you have a small locale with too much to handle and not enough space, you're going to have to begin placing your characters into Shift-groups to be successful.)

-It actually creates a desire to more than one or two characters, because people will not want to sit and stare at their characters sleeping when the time comes - Nor would it be safe to. You'd always want a guardian, or more than one, to watch over your helpless sleeping crew.

-It lengthens the game, for sure, and also gives the player another resource to manage (Because food isn't too hard) and if you wanted to go more in depth with the Fatigue system, it could also result in Positive-Growth for Stats. (Say, if you have a Well-Rested character, their stats have a 20% stronger chance of improving while in this state)

-And honestly, much much more. It can be optional, if desired, but I would certainly play with it on to see how I could manage a small group into becoming a larger one while having trade routes, battling whoever, and trying to become more than just a flailing wanderer.

[Hatsune_Neko]

yep was well discussed on the Steam Forum.

but please, dont bump threads. if you want to do that please add more to the discussion instead.
and yes it is in our rules about topic posting behavior, so please don't do it any more.

I will add that you can PM the Dev's. but there is no guarantee they will respond to your question. though i suggest only doing so if you have a serious issue that needs to be addressed. like an issue with Moderators or other such serious issues.

I have watched the Devs brousing the forums so they do indeed read them. they just dont chat much on it except in bug reports or usually questions about modding the game.

[Espa]

Thanks Neko. Just figured I'd bring the points over so that other players that might not browse the Steam Discussion could see.

I'll attempt a PM, but I highly doubt I'll get a response.

[Ownizuka]

I've spoken to Neko and Lumi and they both said that it was removed for unknown reasons, but they couldn't verify the exact 'why'. It's not featured on the Development Roadmap or as a Luxury feature either. . So I'm not really sure why it was scrapped in the first place.

The additional AI programming would probably be fairly extensive in terms of NPC behavior, especially patrols. It would probably add a lot more for the game to keep track of as well, possibly introducing more performance issues; which likely contradicts their current intentions. It seems like their focus at the moment is more on stability and functionality and less on new gameplay features.

Still, all of the points you made are fantastic and thinking about it makes me excited about the possibilities. Definitely let us know if you get any input from the Dev's.

[Espa]

I certainly will! And hell yeah, I definitely think this at least warrants some, no matter how small, consideration just for the incredible dynamics it would bring to the game, as well as REALLY affecting your choices in your squad type.

For instance, if you prefer a small-group squad that wanders at NIGHT, you could find all the bandit camps while they're asleep and ambush the hell out of them. Cash them in like real Bounty Hunters -- At the risk of fighting possibly more deadly 'Night Creatures/Ronins'.

OR

If you prefer larger group dynamics, then you'd really have to build up your base quite well to accommodate so many people and their sleeping habits, or end up placing people in Shift-Work so that you always have a group doing something, while the other sleeps peacefully.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would not find this as an absolute gamechanger - As long as it's applied to NPCs as well. Yes, there'll have to be AI Packages for the sleeping and the building of camps for Outside-City NPCs. . But just think how freaking cool that would be to see that (Example) the Starving Bandits have made a camp along a trade route and is subsequently damaging the goods available in towns. --- Perhaps further, maybe they take over a Holy Farm and convert it to their own HQ, becoming more than just Starving Bandits, but a small faction that's capable of growing through intense hostile actions. (This would be something you'd want to nip in the bud quick. . )
-
Or maybe you do the same. . Perhaps for a purpose. Mine would be to completely weaken the Holy Nation into starvation so I could hit them while they're already on their backs.

[Ownizuka]

Or maybe you do the same. . Perhaps for a purpose. Mine would be to completely weaken the Holy Nation into starvation so I could hit them while they're already on their backs.

Yus! I have a similar dream. Right now, my only method of taking down the Holy Nation is to kidnap their guards 1 by 1 (currently playing a solo character) and dump them in a shack where I proceed to cripple them over time and beat them all into comas (the High Paladins and Inquisitors take forever!). I was able to completely clear out Stack but one time, after reloading, they were all reset and now I'm back to square one.

It would be awesome to be able to manipulate the rise and fall of different faction groups over time with strategic actions. Those poor starving bandits seem destined to suffer. I feel bad when my character wrecks an entire squad with 3 swings.

One day, my feeble friends...one day...

[Espa]

Or maybe you do the same. . Perhaps for a purpose. Mine would be to completely weaken the Holy Nation into starvation so I could hit them while they're already on their backs.

Yus! I have a similar dream. Right now, my only method of taking down the Holy Nation is to kidnap their guards 1 by 1 (currently playing a solo character) and dump them in a shack where I proceed to cripple them over time and beat them all into comas (the High Paladins and Inquisitors take forever!). I was able to completely clear out Stack but one time, after reloading, they were all reset and now I'm back to square one.

It would be awesome to be able to manipulate the rise and fall of different faction groups over time with strategic actions. Those poor starving bandits seem destined to suffer. I feel bad when my character wrecks an entire squad with 3 swings.

One day, my feeble friends...one day...

The Holy Nation is literally the reason why I will attempt to join the Cult of Narko once that's released so that I can murder all of those misogynistic women-haters, and I love the possibility of living a true night time schedule to work for the Dark Goddess once Faction joining is a thing. Perhaps it would give a bonus to Stealth and Strength, or something of the like.

I can see this becoming center stage for the plot in the war between the two fanatical groups that I really hope abides by the rules of Fatigue, where perhaps for the most part the Cult of Narko has the advantage at night, but not in the day.

But yes, the idea of creeping up on that large group of Holy Servants and High Paladins while they had made camp and taking them out while they're at their weakest would be the most satisfying thing ever, AND also yield some pretty strong gear - either for profit, reconstruction, or even as a disguise when passing through towns to utilize certain goods, or to further weaken the Holy Nation by bold actions, such as assassinate the shop heads, food production, and all outside contact until I and destroy the effectiveness/economy of that city (If future AI allows such things)

Personally, I hope I also get to become a slaver if I ever do choose to do larger group dynamics because that's the future of Okranites to me ;D

But going back to the Fatigue topic, these small fantasies are but a taste of what could be possible and is already a crazy improvement in Quality of Life aspects and on dynamic decision making - Whether that involves traveling and having to base your stops by the sheer distance and fatigue that is likely to occur, or much else.

[Captain Deathbeard]

Fatigue is not planned and was in fact never planned in this sense. The fatigue I had planned was the short-term type, ie getting out of breath from fighting or running for too long and needing to rest briefly.

Currently all the advantages you propose from adding long-term type fatigue are already in the game or do-able without a sleep requirement. NPCs already go to bed, or can be nocturnal etc. Making the player need to sleep I think wouldn't add anything fun and would just be more micromanagement and even restrictions on gameplay.

Same reason I'm not going to add thirst, because it's something mostly already abstractly covered by the hunger system, adding another bar is probably removing more fun than it gives back.

The important goal I hold to is adding complexity and difficulty while still minimising tedium and micromanagement. It's important to maintain a balance.