Banks

[Finson]

Ok, some of you might be like, "Banks? Banks are about the most boring thing I can imagine. Also, they're run by assholes and I hate assholes." But hear me out.

I read a bit about some money balancing issues that Chris was having, and it was a long thread and I didn't read it all, but I did check the search bar and saw nothing about banks mentioned. People talked about expensive housing and stuff, and Chris said he didn't want building houses to be too expensive, since some form of building will be necessary when characters are able to embark on their own enterprises such as mining, and he didn't want it to be too hard to get a foothold early on in the game. I'm all about that, sure, but my fear in this case would be of sacrificing too much realism for the sake of user friendliness or game balancing mechanics. My proposed solution to most of these types of questions would be: Don't sacrifice realism, just add MORE realism. If people are worried about a certain mechanic or feature having detrimental effects on their progress in-game, then most likely, there is actual historical precedent to these problems, and the human spirit of invention has already solved them in real life! BANKS!

I'm talking about loans, bank accounts, accruing interest, even large-scale corporate scandals! Rather than running out and scavenging swords off of dead bodies (which is cool too), you can get a loan to start your particular business venture early on. To me, it solves the problem of the "go out and get your ass kicked until you can start killing people and taking their stuff" approach that happens at the beginning of the game, which strikes me as wildly unrealistic, since you'd die pretty fast doing that in real life. I see banks as a potentially dynamic feature that can only add to the landscape of Kenshi, and could possibly solve some problems about money balancing as well. And it could create other money problems, but in a less artificial way, having more to do with the political or social atmosphere in the game and less to do with obvious game mechanics, which, to me, always intrude upon my immersion into a gaming environment.

I really am incapable of writing short posts, sorry. Anyway, what do you guys think?

[Marcuss2]

Added to suggestion list

[Mattk50]

loans and interest are really a pretty shitty mechanic in general... if we didnt take into account the possibility to simply not pay off the bank and have their collection agency come after you. That could be really fun.

I seriously wouldn't want taking out loans to be necessary unless you wanted to take that risk for accelerated capital. If implemented it should be optional, as in, its viable to not bother with that bs.

[Santaissick]

Of course it will be optional. No one is forcing you to take loan in real life either.

I think having banks would be great. You can take loan and start up business and pay the loan with interest later on, or you can choose not to pay which leads to everyone hating you and sending thugs after you.

If you are wandering trader, any bandit group that knocks you out would certainly loot your money too. By having an account in bank you can keep most of the money in safe, although there is possibility that town raiders might rob the bank and part of what you have there. When you are powerful enough , you can be the one robbing the bank.

Maybe insure your building in case of fire or attack? For regular fee of course.

Buy share of local blacksmith? Or honey business?

Maybe bank would be good place to sell your gold from your gold mine?

[toxiciron]

... Or honey business?...

*CENSORED* be praised.
I'm all for banks, perhaps you can set the time in which you promise to pay it back by with an inversely proportional interest rate. And if you are too infamous, they may refuse to give you a loan (like having a bad credit rating! YAY!)
EDIT: Why the hell does it censor the plural of bee? MY RELIGION IS BEING SUPPRESSED!

[Finson]

Yeah, it would be silly for it to not be optional. I think it'd just get the ball rolling fast, with a bit of added risk, while if you wanted to take your time and not get a loan and hide your money under your mattress, that'd be fine too. I think it could do nothing but add options really.

Company policies could be whatever they want, too. Say... One bank lets you declare bankruptcy if you can't pay (how nice of them, though good luck getting a loan later), while another bank sends you to jail (their private jail or a city jail, depending on their political backing), while yet another forces you into SLAVERY! Or they ransom your family! Read the fine print, people.

Of course, you could also start your own bank eventually... Also, think about what that means? A non-combat centered game, where you can essentially form monopolies and empires or do deeds of pure altruism without actually ever having to pick up a blade. Or you can be supreme badass with a sword too. Whatev. Isn't that pretty much what this game aspires to be? Banks would give a pulse to the power systems in Kenshi.

[Scotterius]

You know, this is kind of an unexplored frontier. I really like the idea. I like the idea of a band of samurai's worrying about their credit rating and caravan insurance. As risk increases in the game these practices would be more and more valuable.

I would love to see robber barons, and entire towns made from insurance and banking businesses. I could see a famine driving power towards the banks to the degree that even local warlords might capitulate. You could have a spidery underworld arise from these institutions in a spontaneous- unscripted wonderful accident. It is a very, very interesting idea.

Edit: Oh, and I would love to be an evil banking mastermind with my thug army.

[Mattk50]

Of course it will be optional. No one is forcing you to take loan in real life either.

That's not what i meant. Im saying that taking out a loan should involve much more interest and therefore risk and lesser profitability for the player. To justify this, one could say that the kenshi society is far more volitile requiring higher interest rates and risk on the bank's part.

If something is more viable than something else to a significant degree you make the other options nonoptions.

[Finson]

In many cases, going to a bank is the best option in real life, if you want to start your own business take out a loan for a new car or something, and in most cases, if a person isn't awful with money, it is an added stress, but not something that wrecks them. Now, I'm not saying banks don't take advantage of people or engage in some pretty terrible business practices, but it is a useful and helpful service a lot of the time, and as far as Kenshi goes, it's difficult to have any kind of really fluid economy without banks. A bank-less economy is often a stagnant one. So, my point isn't just that banks would be good for Kenshi, they might be necessary. Also, banks are a central pillar of power in any economy, which gives you something to subvert in-game, should they get out of line.

As for banks removing options, that is a really valid question at this phase in the game, where you would essentially be able to (if banks were implemented now): A) Kill people, then sell their swords, or B) go to a bank. But later on in the development... again, look at real life. You can join the army, work at KFC, apprentice under an architect, etc, etc. Kenshi should have more-or-less similar options: work for someone, join a faction and move up in the ranks, seek out a master cobbler and learn his noble trade (maybe?). But if you need bucks and you don't have them, you go to a bank.

That said, I don't know if Kenshi's environment will really be all that volatile. It won't necessarily be stable, but there should still be a lot of citizens doing citizen work, who don't risk their lives or their money every day. Right now, the population is probably 95% wandering bands of fighters, but I seriously doubt it will stay this way. In the Wild West, for example, things were crazy sometimes, sure, but banks in general managed quite well, and people used them and were not hamstrung by them at every turn by high interest rates. In Kenshi, there should still be a supply of low-risk investments. Now, YOU might not be a low risk investment, and I'm not saying the banks WON'T try to rule the Kenshi world, but then, that's all a bonus as far as I'm concerned.

[Mattk50]

The point i tried to make is that in a post apocalyptic society you dont have massive government agents to reposes peoples houses for you and easy ways to find those who took loans from you and ran, so by neccessity there would be higher interest rates on banks due to the risk.

[Scotterius]

That said, I don't know if Kenshi's environment will really be all that volatile. It won't necessarily be stable, but there should still be a lot of citizens doing citizen work, who don't risk their lives or their money every day. Right now, the population is probably 95% wandering bands of fighters, but I seriously doubt it will stay this way.

Chris's statements earlier in the development cycle described a system a little different than what we see in the alpha:
"But although generated, ALL characters will be consistent, and have names, homes, affiliations and families, and remember you and what you have done."

His description is more like a random generated Fallout 1, than say a mount and blade system ("mountain bandits" are all called "mountain bandits") which we have today. It could easily change.

I am sure the environments will be volatile, even if no other dynamic force will be added ( and I am sure they are coming) the player itself will shape the world drastically. It would be disappointing though if I am the only powerful presence rising there.

[toxiciron]

I am sure the environments will be volatile, even if no other dynamic force will be added ( and I am sure they are coming) the player itself will shape the world drastically. It would be disappointing though if I am the only powerful presence rising there.

I am very drawn to this paragraph... reminds me a bit of the current indie project "The Old World". Anywho, if there are powers stronger than the player or any powers (s)he owns, it shouldn't be the most difficult thing to topple. As I've seen it, it is much easier to destroy than to create, that is the nature of the world. If you want to be the best bank, it would be hard to do so by creating, but rather by destroying. Undercut their rates and expectations, and they will have to adjust to YOU, rather than you just hoping you'll get more customers... just a small -- probably useless -- example

[Finson]

The point i tried to make is that in a post apocalyptic society you dont have massive government agents to reposes peoples houses for you and easy ways to find those who took loans from you and ran, so by neccessity there would be higher interest rates on banks due to the risk.

I am sure the environments will be volatile, even if no other dynamic force will be added ( and I am sure they are coming) the player itself will shape the world drastically. It would be disappointing though if I am the only powerful presence rising there.

You guys know better than me about what Chris has said regarding the final in-game atmosphere, so I could be wrong about any speculation I've made. Has it been explicitly stated that this is an actual "post-apocalyptic" environment? I guess I thought the back-story hadn't been really established yet, if only roughly. Though there is an army and a Holy Empire and all that already, so it seems that there's a fairly solid infrastructure planned for at least some places. Though, yeah, I'm sure it will still be really volatile in a lot of instances. I guess I'm anticipating a mix of calm and chaos.

[Gates]

I support the concept of banks. Def could add another level of depth to the game as a future update. I esp like bank funded hit squads to collect loans off of deadbeats.

[Scotterius]

Has it been explicitly stated that this is an actual "post-apocalyptic" environment?

Not is so many words, a technological-cultural decline or fantastic-technologically-limited-progress could explain the anachronistic condition as well I suppose. That windmill has what really looks like like a electrical generator, the well has a motorized pump and there are a lot of other examples. The point is that Chris is pushing the art and setting in this direction.

I really like the idea of paper power. The idea of printing presses that spread propaganda could be fun too. Who would not enjoy finding out where that annoying "Voice of the People" is coming from?...
...Those ungrateful peasants.

Edit: And it is fitting that my halloween icon is a decapitated version!

[essidus]

I love the idea of banks, banking, loans, investments, and so forth. There are a few things with it that should be considered, if this idea is to be taken seriously.

Banking in a non-progressive world: Okay, so historically banks (and major trade companies) were more or less independent governments working within existing ones. Powerful banks practically had their own armies to enforce their loan agreements, with mafia-esque retribution when debtors failed to pay. This was mostly because weakly enforced banks would never get their money back, and would fail. There was also fierce infighting with major lenders.

People aren't the only ones who borrow. Wars are very, very expensive. How does a kingdom pay for it all? Sometimes, its by raising taxes. Sometimes, its by taking out loans. What happens when a kingdom refuses repayment? Well, if you're one of those weak banks as above, you fail. If you're a truly strong bank, you put a new leader in their place, who will actually pay back the loan. If you could get to the point where you're using your debtors to change international politics... well, that's a whole new game, isn't it?

With that in mind, there's another interesting idea- buying debts. See, sometimes people who are owed money would rather get it all back early, if for less than they were expecting. You buy that debt, and now the debtor owes you. You could put yourself in a very powerful position simply by buying off that kind of debt. Delicious.

[iSuck345]

I actually agree with this. Banks have existed since about even before the Renaissance (by my expectations) and they were quite vital in trading since you could take loans and convert other coins to the coin of the town you're currently on to so then you can buy stuff. I have no objectiosn against this.

[Kanaro]

There was a nice bank mod done for Skyrim lately. I only mention it because it has risk-vs-reward built into the investment system, and you have to wait a decent amount of time before seeing any payoff at all (30 days). On top of that, early withdrawl has huge penalties associated with it.

If you're considering tossing banking into the game, might want to take it the full distance and make it realistic to some degree.

[essidus]

If you're considering tossing banking into the game, might want to take it the full distance and make it realistic to some degree.

The realism thing. Its key. For people using the services of a bank, skipping on loans should carry hardcore penalties. Like death, dismemberment, etc. As people have said already, loans need to be either hard to get or so risky that its simply not worth it if you can't turn it around quickly. Also, bankers don't lend to just random strangers in basic gear. You'd have to make a name for yourself before a lender is interested in lending.

Now, for the people playing up to be a banker... this should be a major challenge, equal to fighting other feudal lords, since starting a new bank is the equivalent of declaring war.

The really tricky thing is that for banks to work, you really need to have a functional economy. You know, static quantity of world currencies available, taxation on trade, governments actually paying for armies and goods, etc. With that, you'll be able to forcibly create economic incidents that drive people to using the services of your lending establishment. Or alternatively, you can use things like good interest rates on loans to help grow an area's overall economy.

...I might be overthinking this.

[zibathy]

There should also be an option to kill every bank. That would be the option I choose. c: