My Cents (0.47)

[joshtheme]

Hi all,

First, the tl;dr: Kenshi is a game with a fascinating premise with a flawed execution. I hope (and believe) many of these flaws will be cleaned up by the final release.

I know Kenshi is in alpha, and I am not going to pass judgement on whether the game is is "good" or "bad." Making that judgement, at this point, is a disservice to the countless hours still ahead for the devs. I did want to point out a few of the things that I noticed. For the most part, I am staying away from game features, because they aren't all there yet. I will give an example of one at the end though.

Conceptual Asymmetry
Currently, the thematic cohesion in Kenshi is confusing to the point of immersion breaking strangeness. Take the NPC names as an example. You have the bizarre (The Wall, Stinks, Bombingham), Japanese (Tako, Fuujin, Metaru Senshi) and Germanic/Scandinavian (Lars, Jurgen, Brecht). In and of itself, this isn't a bad thing. Diverse names can be used to indicate different cultures and ethnicities that are predominant in an area. Currently, the names are randomly assigned, and seem, well, random. Look to Mount and Blade for an example of a game that did this well.

This also extends to the art. The wind turbine looks to be constructed from scrap metal, while the outpost looks like it was designed by an architect. While the post apocalyptic feel really appeals to me, at some point I'm going to begin fabricating all of the components I need to make my own structures. Why would I design a wind turbine from scrap metal when I'm creating everything from scratch, including mining my own raw material? It doesn't hold together and destroys immersion for players like me who look for it.

Unforgiving Terrain
Stunning mountain ranges reaching high up in the sky are beautiful, making them difficult to navigate is frustrating. Some of this can be blamed on the early stages of the map, but that's not what I'm driving at. Having a mountain range dominate 1/4 of the map with very few passes feels like punishing the player for being unfamiliar with the terrain, while the occasional mountain pass is not much reward for the effort it took to find. It becomes especially noticeable when there is no clear indicator (usually some sort of visual cue) of passable vs impassible terrain.

What this boils down to is a matter of design. Terrain design that shows the players an optimal path can be looked at as hand holding, and this is a valid opinion when it's heavy-handed. However, when it is done right, the player feels the path they took was intuitive, and they don't notice the subtle cues that say "go this way!" This further encourages exploration, because it convinces us that "Hmm, that little path there might lead to something interesting." It builds a sense of trust, usually unconsciously, that we won't be probably won't be wasting our time while we explore.

So What?
The lack of fixed goals is one of the great appeals of sandbox games for many people. I loved it in the X series, I loathed it in Skyrim. The main difference between the two game down to a sense of accomplishment. In X, when I built my first space station and had a small but powerful fleet, I looked at the galaxy and thought "You will be mine!" When I finished Skyrim, I felt as if I had just experienced a medieval hiking simulator (to paraphrase another person's review of the game).

In X, exploration and entrepreneurship was rewarded chiefly by more money, better ships, and greater interactivity with the factions in the universe. In Skyrim, not one person cared if I found a new cave. And why should they? Any resources I discovered could be found in dozens, if not hundreds, of other places no one cared about. This makes the world feel empty and irrelevant. In one form or another I think this point may have been brought up before. I cannot stress how much "So What?" murders the longevity of play for sandbox games. If I have spent days of real-time to develop research and meticulously upgrade my buildings, I want a satisfying outcome.

When my guys begin churning out the very best weapons in the desert, I need to be told. I need to see increased trade, I need to set my own prices, I need to see my equipment end up in the hands of my allies or my enemies. I want to be furious when one of my men is cut down by a sword he helped forge. If this doesn't happen, I only feel that sense of accomplishment once, the first time I make that sword perhaps. When I send a shipment to my allies the Dead Cats (or whomever) and they win a war against the Imperial Lords (or whomever), I look at the game world and say "my actions matter, what happens when I don't send that shipment next time?" When that happens, the sense of relevance becomes repeatable. I do not mean this last part to be a feature request. My main point is there needs to be rewarding, non-trivial, and variable outcomes for my actions.



The scope of this game is beyond impressive, as is the ambitiousness of it. If Chris said tomorrow he was ceasing all development, I'd still feel as if I had spent good money because those first many hours of game play were engaging and exciting. By turning out such an impressive concept, even in its present state with its many issues, he has set a very high bar for himself. One that I have no doubt his team will be able to clear.

[Cat_Fuzz]

This will probably wind you up, as you are making some good points but you nail the counter-argument in your first few paragraphs - it IS in alpha still.

This means that style and thematic visuals are still WIP as are the AI interactions with each faction, and so will the design of many of the objectives and more rewarding gameplay that Chris has stated is 'On it's way'. The thing is this game is far from finished, and most of the things you list will be addressed at some point down the line.

Still, I'm not going to be all "In alpha, don't like - wait til finished version" because that's a bull attitude and you are entitled to your opinion, but at the same time...

...it is still in alpha...

[joshtheme]

Your absolutely right, it is still alpha, so it doesn't get me upset at all . I have a bit of a background in game design (mostly board games), a strong computer background (but it is in cyber security and not game development), and I have created one awful iOS game for a final project in a college class. I just wanted to throw my two cents in there, mostly because I hadn't seen any discussions specifically about conceptual symmetry.

The "it's still alpha" attitude is a valid one, but the flip side of that coin is that as a community we should mention things we notice that need improvement. Game design is complicated, regardless of the medium, and the more eyes on something the better it usually turns out (as long as it doesn't devolve into design by committee, which I do not think is a real risk for Kenshi).

[Cat_Fuzz]

Fair point, and I like how you phrased it as conceptual symmetry. It's true that having community feedback is beneficial to developing games (as in WIP, not as a common law of games development). I can agree to an extent with what you are saying, but some not (and in terms of features, Chris is pretty much got his own intentions with that and is sticking to it).

Anyway to the points.

It's true that currently there seems to be no rhyme or reason to this atm. It's a mishmash of Japanese, pirate, medieval knight, Tibetan monk, Scandinavian feudal post apocalypse with modern machinery and building construction. I agree that at some point in the future these elements will need to be honed down - maybe given more definition. I've currently circumnavigated this issue in my game by modding the factions to suit one or two of the above themes to give it a more wholesome feel, I suggest you give it a go as its quite fun and rewarding.

In all likeliness however, and as Chris has mentioned, the current factions are mostly place holder until the art has been finished. We're likely to see more of this with next update when armour crafting is in and the female character artwork is there. Even still, these are likely to change still later in time once more of the features are set. This is also true of points two and three - especially three as more biomes are being introduced in the next few updates.

Obviously, I'm not here to just blindly counter point your opinion, but I like how currently there are many themes to Kenshi - it allows it to be diverse and for your own faction to become what you want it to be - be they modern looking mercs or badass ninjas. If anything I'd like Chris to eventually continue working on the modding tools so that players can streamline the experience themselves, as I am currently in the process of doing.

EDIT: holy crap I'm sorry for the wall of text, typing on a phone and hasn't realised I'd said so much

Anyway TL;DR - good points, but Chris knows the theme will need touching in the future, personally hope he buffs mod tools to help players streamline their own experience.

[arthoz]

This quite a nice analysis joshtheme...so true about the stuff of recognition. Another reason why Dwarf Fortress is a legendary game where even if you failed, you will struggle again and again knowing that in the end you will still fail...the sense of accomplishment and what you did really matters...another reason why although minecraft is enjoyable over time it made me feel a bit psychotic...the loneliness is unbearable...

Just hope you could keep posting your views on every update so that new players or prospective player could have a clear understanding of what this game have to offer. Again, thanks for your effort.

[joshtheme]

Cat_Fuzz-

First, I like your name a whole bunch.

Chris absolutely should have his features all but set in stone already, adding every cool feature he can think of would only dilute the game into something confusing and (possibly) unplayable. Further more, once people figure out the "optimum path", all of the features that aren't part of that path become wasted time for the developer and for new players alike. (There are already many great articles about feature creep, and a few discussions on these forums, so I won't dwell).

I, too, love the possibility for many the themes that seem to be evolving. I also believe that Chris and his team will implement them beautifully. I'm just really excited to see it happen!

arthoz-

Thanks bud! I fully intended to post my thoughts as development progresses (as long as I didn't get a hostile reaction to what I posted initially, fortunately that doesn't seem to be the style of these forums). Posting things about contentious games *cough*Mass Effect 3 Ending *cough* and people can become a little... unreasonable. I'm probably going to wait until .5 or something like that, every update would be excessive.

Minecraft is a great example. Its essentially a toy, virtual Legos. That's not a bad thing, but when I was a kid I came up with complex back stories for my actions figures, full of betrayals, tragic heroes, and alliances of convenience. I did it because action figures by themselves were boring to me. At the end of the day though, it can be difficult to come up with complex stories in Minecraft. A whole lot of fun- and the guy who designed a computer inside Minecraft amazed me- but it's a world built entirely around a couple of mechanics.

Anyway, I hope that wasn't too incoherent, I spent all day vineyard hopping with the girlfriend.

[arthoz]

Hey don't you worry about hostile reaction...people are just like that. If you did something that got a reaction...favourable or not, it meant that you are doing something right. Beside, you can't please everyone so just pour out your heart. Maybe active forumers would disagree but there are lurkers who enjoy reading stuff and love to see different point of views. If you don't receive any good replies doesn't mean nobody cares.

On another matter here as the forum seniors and moderator have mentioned, we attack the idea, not the person. You might get corrected but I believe our guardians here will shield us all from nasty bullies...

[Hatsune_Neko]

You might get corrected but I believe our guardians here will shield us all from nasty bullies...

who us??
never.
>.>




<.<