Tech Tree as of 0.42.2

[Geriatricus]

I'm hammering away at Smithing 14 on Research Bench VI and have built everything else in two settlements. Is that the tech ceiling to date?

I love this game. 110 hours in. It's the best $15 I've spent on a video game since . . . well, ever.

[Captain Deathbeard]

yeah. 110 hours is an awful lot. What is your opinion on the tech speed, and the overall amount of tech?

[hakzar]

I'm not the original poster, but I've got over 100 hours in and definitely agree with his assessment. This game is incredible.

As for tech speed / tree, I think they're too exploitable. While I realize ease-of-use is important, tech speed doesn't matter too much if you can queue it up and walk away. One thing that might improve it is occasionally having tech stop and have the tech bench require a random/semi-random new material ("Ok, now I need robot parts to move forward. I hear a shop in Brink has them.").

Without something to prevent walking away from the game and leaving it running, tech speed is kind of a moot point (I had to do this on the last few levels... they just took way too long).

As for tech tree length, one way to keep it relevant in end-game would be to make some kind of "Improved Crafting" with levels 1-100 that take exponentially longer to research (similar to skill/stat gains) that offer minuscule / diminishing improvements to produced items (maybe more charges on health kits, more power from power plants, more power from fuel, better weapons and armor, etc).

[Murrayman]

I think a simple solution of having a required research skill to reach a certain tech would be sufficient for time, though i am seeing a bug where my researcher's skill is irrelevant, making things go into the -x amount of hours rather than completing but i think something more centric about your character's themselves rather than an economy indepedant of itself be nice. The tech's level at a reasonable speed i think, it should be something to aim for, not given. Having to start out weak and work hard in a harsh world tis the point of the game, can't research those special uber weapons too quickly haha

[Ardanza]

After researching everything, I have to agree that it's really exploitable and painstaking, due to the fact that all it is is a waiting game. There's no real challenge to it, I just have my squad around my researcher, walk away from comp and come back every 30min to check in, medic my guys, walk away, maybe build a new research bench if needed, but it's just a little annoying in my opinion.

Personally, I believe research should be similar to X-COM in a way, and by that I mean say I find a weapon I can't make, I take it to my researcher, he looks at it, and it speeds up the time dramatically for the weapon tier research.

[Geriatricus]

Sorry, guys. I wasn't aware there was a response here. I agree with the previous posters. Extra participation or additional components would make the tech exploration more engaging in the way that "investment" tends to lead to a greater sense of ownership.

I also just ran 0.45 today after a few months away.

[Wicked001]

I have to disagree. Not just for the sake of being the devil's advocate, but I feel like it is balanced fairly well. Considering that it takes soo long to level up to max. If you want to start it up and go afk that is your own game experience but I've spent a number of hours watching my guys craft and intentionally limiting my squad size.

If the process is modified or made more difficult by adding random stuff, the amount of time needed to complete all the tiers of research should be made shorter. It takes a ton of time to level up to max... and I'm only researching level 11 right now... x.X

It's similar to the argument about Skyrim crafting. If you feel like it is making the game too easy for you, practice some self control; and don't go moaning and mess things up for other players.

I expect that roving bands of mobs were designed to do just what you above posters have mentioned, every once in a while throwing a monkey wrench in your crafting plans. If your squad is too powerful for that kind of thing to slow your research then you are probably far enough into the game that there is no exploitation about it.

As I said before, if you are running the game while afk you might be exploiting the system. I know that I don't leave the game going while I sleep so I can exploit the system... AND IT SEEMS THAT THE BALANCE IS OK AS IT IS.

With one or two benches for research going at a time, you spend about a minute of real time per hour of in game research. This means that the last tier will almost take 2 and a half hours to research from start to finish. This is A LOT, but it is not unreasonable.

I would not recommend making crafting more difficult because some players want to exploit the game running while they are afk. If you have to change crafting to alter this, Just add a way of measuring the size or scope of an outpost and start sending roving bands to hassle us whlie we craft.

I do feel that lack of self control is a big issue with some players of all games, but personally I find that if I notice a game element that can be exploited I proceed with caution. This prevents me from taking the fun of the experience away from myself... And technically you are not playing the game if it is playing itself while you are away from the keyboard.

Just two cent.

-Wicked001

[Mattk50]

once you actually need to defend your base from serious assault forces, nobody should be able to afk overnight to farm materials and research... That said, you could do your research in a building bought in a city.

[Santaissick]

I think the research system is pretty well balanced. There should be something to do for 100-200 gaming hours and the player has to "advance" in the game for the whole time. It requires big tech tree and long research times. And we get more action when we have more random events and more factions to harass our settlement.

But I agree, at this point of development, the player doesn't really participate when he tries to advance in tech. The adding of random materials sounds good to me but I think it's too much if the research stops every time the researcher goes out of materials.

The best system I can think of is something like this:

1. The research time we have now stays the same and everything can be invented with only pointing someone to do the research.

2. Researches can be sped up by 20-50% by adding one certain material that's visible in the tech tree. (For example: Smithing 2........5h.....[Raw Iron])

3. When that research is completed and new research starts, the bonus wears away and new material is needed to make that research faster.

What do you think?

[GhostOfGod]

I also think that the research system is reasonably well balanced right now, especially with the addition of walls. Though AFK research might be an available exploit at the moment it will likely be fixed as the game continues to progress.

I like the materials adding a bonus idea, but I'd shift from a material to an "expert" for now. This would allow for you to actually gain benefits to your research from a well developed town and bring some more interaction between industries and research. What an "expert" is exactly is...well they're experts in a given field providing assistance to the researcher. For example, you are researching Smithing at some level, having someone with actual Weapon Smith skill around, the higher the better, should be useful. The bonus could even be the same as the one applied at the the crafting bench.

Some techs don't have an associated research though, or it falls under the Labouring skill which is pretty broad. In those cases I think it would have to depend on the actual results of learning the skill. Designing a new building? Engineer might be able to help with that. Researching new techniques for Smithing? Weapon/Armor smith is the choice there.

[sorrakaa]

I don't like the idea of needing "material" for research.. it makes it feel wrong in a way that complicates the simplicity.
If this is the case though, then you would want to change the ability to craft those "mine's".
But if materials are needed for researching then i hope its only a little bit, you need alot of time to get max research and i don't wanna be running back and forth to town while protecting my outpost, i kinda feel like there is alot more planned for the future of the research anyway without adding "material" to an unnecessary system.

Now these "Experts".. are these NPC's that you buy things off?
Examples:

• Recipes for crafting new stuff?
• Recipes for crafting stronger Healing packs?
• Recipes for crafting backpacks?
• Recipes for crafting new buildings?
• Recipes for higher level research benches?
• Recipes for crafting a stretcher? (so 2 people can pick 1 person up and run them back to a jailer or bed quicker)
• Would they be rare vendors?
• Would they be town specific experts? (each town has a different one with diff things to sell or teach)
• Would there be wandering rare vendors?
• Would the experts sell special build recipes? (like training dummy XX)
• Would the experts sell Weapon recipes that have awesome skins?
• Would the experts sell Armor recipes that have awesome skins?

Would buying these recipes be able to double click them and be added to the Tech list?

These experts would need to look old, like Deckard Cain off of Diablo.
The experts also seem like a better idea than adding materials.
If they were town specific it would give you a reason to take a journey all over the map in order to seek out each expert.

IF things halted for no real reason other than "we are going too fast go get me some material" then im not really interested in bothering with an outpost and will go back to being a drifter.

Plus i like the idea of having an ant farm for an outpost, with the henchmen just running around automated to the jobs they were given, materials would just be a "meh why bother" kinda of thing, but Experts atleast give you the option of "do i want to bother with running to that city to buy that recipe"

[LTPLegend]

[quote="Murrayman"]I think a simple solution of having a required research skill to reach a certain tech would be sufficient for time, though i am seeing a bug where my researcher's skill is irrelevant, making things go into the -x amount of hours rather than completing but i think something more centric about your character's themselves rather than an economy indepedant of itself be nice. The tech's level at a reasonable speed i think, it should be something to aim for, not given. Having to start out weak and work hard in a harsh world tis the point of the game, can't research those special uber weapons too quickly haha[/quote

You can get stuck though if your scientist shared their research with anther guy and neither got enough to reach the next level. Or what if they die. Just increase their chance of a break through the higher their level but even a level one has a 1% chance to get tech level 10 if you needed too, all the while increasing his skills.

I have 80 hours in and yes you can walk away but really it takes a long time anyways to skill up and there is so much you have to do int he mean time to be able to use the tech that walking away doesn't give you as big as an advantage as you think you still have to invest the time to micro manage your resource gathers anyways and fight off bandits.

You could have bandits aggro from farther away if they see your settlement. I mean they would say oh hey that's a new place, let's check it out it might be ripe for plundering. Also if they beat you they should take your stuff. A little off topic but the point is bandits would interrupt your studying.

You have to build new workbenches each time too so you really can't exploit this us much as it is made out to be. I loved it had no real problem.

PS please do not listen to all these people who want rare items, mmo crap like ideas and fantasy stuff. Why do vendors have to sell rare blueprints? Was there some advanced world before this? Why can't we make them or not have them all all. Make the game more realistic all these quest ideas and shop hunting for items is nothing but a fake form of entertainment, no one really want's to go scour every shop for a game breaking item.

[sorrakaa]

PS please do not listen to all these people who want rare items, mmo crap like ideas and fantasy stuff. Why do vendors have to sell rare blueprints? Was there some advanced world before this? Why can't we make them or not have them all all. Make the game more realistic all these quest ideas and shop hunting for items is nothing but a fake form of entertainment, no one really want's to go scour every shop for a game breaking item.

Note the Question marks.. "?" <-- those.
It was a question.

Rare items as in looks.. skins.. not overall strength or power or any type of advantage.. just pure simple cosmetics..
Pretty sure i even said "skins" in the question.

There could be plenty more questions that these "crap" ideas could produce, but i wouldn't waste my breath on you since you don't read too well.

[Wicked001]

by Chris_The_Great » Wed May 22, 2013 6:08 pm

yeah. 110 hours is an awful lot. What is your opinion on the tech speed, and the overall amount of tech?

I think in general, its pretty great.

I do think however that there is too much effort invested into practice dummies though. I have a squad of 5 and by the time I finished researching the best dummies I could, which only seem to be able to train a weapon skill up to 5... even my weakest guys had 12+ skills just from getting beat up by all the passing goon squads.

I don't really have much recommendation with regards to this though. I think the direction of the game and the work you have done is pretty amazing (can't wait for sounds though ).

Plus, the new features you add in will almost all include more research... I can easily see how research and crafting times could easily double by the time armor, bows, harpoons, and turrets have been added.

Thanks again for the amazing game and can't wait to play more!
-Wicked001

P.S. The biggest concern I have about the Tech trees and crafting so far is storage and AI interaction (not considering the characters getting stuck in buildings). I feel like items such as Steel should have storage containers that characters will go to just to fill and remove these items from when smelting or smithing (or that the AI should interact with generic storage containers for any items that do not have specific containers). It leaves a gap in the process of automation. The Smith at the bench doesn't go look for steel or fabric to craft weapons with and those materials need to be fed into their inventory manually (they just sit in the full hopper of the ore refinery until manually moved). To further expand, Completed weapons should be loaded into empty weapon storage containers (as I expect armor will too later). I've had a bug recently where items from my smith bench hopper just disappear and I've lost hundreds of hours worth of crafted items just randomly. If the AI manually put them into their own inventory slots or into a Weapon Rack, this would alleviate a lot of this issue (as well as the smith stopping all work after crafting a single rusty club).

P.S.S. I noticed the "Legendary" weapon start option... There is no way to become a legendary weapon maker (even through endless grinding of items. I tend to do the most basic starting path, I wish there was a way to obtain one of these legendary blades through regular game play.

[arthoz]

Woah...saw nearly the same arguement here as in the other post about techs and blueprints...that after I had written a lengthy opinion on it in another topic. I agree that research seems fine having to wait and study the tech to make it available and unlock newer tech. However there are concerns of mine and of others that there need to be some engaging activities involving with research.

My view on this is to provide extra hidden/secret tech trees that unlocks according to dynamic events in the world and what the players did. Sort of like attaining accomplishments like in Sims Medieval. For example kill 10000 bandits, dig 100 graves, impale 500 people, hunt 50 beasts...etc. Each accomplishments would unlock techs related to the accomplishments. In addition allow it to go both ways where both npc and the players are able to unlock the techs, that way when we see the npc using or selling the item we know they have unlocked it in addition the possibilities of buying the techs.

How best to simulate this let say a faction of mercenaries that happen to stay near an area that spawn lots of vicious wild beast and constantly killing lots of them. Killing beasts unlock secrets techs that relates to hunting, leather/furs, archery, traps, sneaking and traps. So the faction would be good in that area by utilizing the techs. In other gameplay session they might used different tech like heavy armour or like weapons depending on their environment and their relationship with other faction.

I think the level of research skill decide how fast you complete a research, but why not add additional requirement like you need ores or special crystal or maybe just plain paper to complete a research similar to the process like making bread or rum. That way it's more engaging since you need to prepare the tools and material for the researcher, not just leaving them banging the table for inspiration until the research is complete.

Also for the smiths make it so that you need your units to have certain skill level like lvl 30 in smith to make a powerful katana or lvl 20 labour to be able to construct a turret or wall. That way you have to make sure your units have enough skill to use the technology and players could not abuse the abillty to buy or unlock tech by reserach alone. No matter how rich they are, they'll be drooling over that weapon/amour blueprint knowing that they don't have the human resource to use it.

A for legendary weapons...well in the real world the smith would sometimes produce an exceedingly high quality work. You could apply it to kenshi by allowing a smith with high lvl of skill at least 10 lvl or 20 lvl above the minimum requirement to produce the item with chances to add extra stat or extra ability to the weapon (along with suffix or perfix to the item name). Like making it sharper, have higher durability, unbreakable, cause massive bleeding, higher critical, etc.

Give the same ability to npc and maybe you'll find a shop where the blacksmith there having high skill able to generate rare items. It will more reason for players to protect an outpost or caravan to avoid the smith from being killed. Ok I know the npc does not scale up as the player lvl up but please allow them to also being able to lvl up dynamically...for example smith will increase their skill and guard get stronger the more they fight...