Honourable, and Dishonourable also Lethal and Non-Lethal

[Chinsei]

I'd like a switch to toggle between these two methods of behavior.

if your character is set to Honourable he'll try to fight fair, and often hold back against weaker opponents. He won't use any methods that might be seen as 'unfair' combat practices.

He won't strike at opponents are down, he won't attack ,or chase someone whose unarmed or fleeing. and after a fight he'll automatically patch up enemies. Honour, and Dishonour of course tend to differ from person to person. But some things i think are core to being Honourable.

Such as trying not to pick fights with people who are weaker.

Where as Dishonourable individuals tend to prefer attacking the weak, and tend to instead of help defeated enemies would kill them immediately, unless they had a bounty. they'd do whatever it took to win, including kicking up sand to blind opponents.

and various other aspects of Honourable an Dishonourable fighting.

There is a 'no chase button' and stuff but , It'd be nice if we could pick there method of fighting perhaps if traits get added to other NPC then you might score points when fighting some enemies who share the 'honourable' or 'dishonourable' trait an they might like you more.

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I'd also like the ability to choose between Lethal , and Non-Lethal fighting.

Lethal Fighting would focus more on 'killing' an inflicting bleeding on the opponent , where as Non-Lethal would focus on simply incapcitating the enemy using mostly blunt damage.

It'd be nice if even using Katana's there was a way for us to kinda flip the sword over an use the blunt side to try to defeat/incapcitate someone. to kinda be merciful , or avoid killing all together.

because having to use your precious medkits to patch someone up costs money >.> i'd rather just give them a bunch of bruises and potentially broken bones than i would having to patch up there cuts an other wounds an use bandages on them.

like the Honour/Dishonour thing. perhaps your peaceful nature , in not trying to kill people, but simply defend yourself could score you some points with people. Where as killing anyone who fights you might gradually make people a bit more afraid of you as time goes on an rumours spread of how many people you've killed...course being able to spread such rumours yourself would be nice too ^.^

[IronMaverick]

Might be interesting additions to the current AI.

[Zeal]

Kenshi is a kill or be killed world. You so much as look at someone funny, and they leave you for dead. You fall in combat, and your own squad members loot your corpse. The place is a dishonorable wasteland full of cannibals, slavery, and beak things that want to turn you into poop.

You'd be the only one in the world who was honorable, and the only one who would care that you were. Everyone else just wants your food, to enslave you, kill you, or eat you for dinner ;p

Maybe having a dialogue option to duel adventurers would be an interesting thing though... Aslong as i also have a dialogue option of pounding them into the dirt, looting all their gear, and then throwing them into the slave camp... Er.. wait. Why do i need a dialogue option for that?

Non-lethal already exists. use a non-bladed weapon like the police and slavers do. They seem to be able to subdue people just fine that way

[Aereto]

Non-lethal already exists. use a non-bladed weapon like the police and slavers do. They seem to be able to subdue people just fine that way

High blunt damage non-lethal weapons can still be lethal in the right hands. While blunt damage needs no first aid and heals faster, hitting the death threshold is still death. Don't give a very high-strength person to do the whacking, for they can maul people with rusted sticks for a weapon.

[Chinsei]

Kenshi is a kill or be killed world. You so much as look at someone funny, and they leave you for dead. You fall in combat, and your own squad members loot your corpse. The place is a dishonorable wasteland full of cannibals, slavery, and beak things that want to turn you into poop.

You'd be the only one in the world who was honorable, and the only one who would care that you were. Everyone else just wants your food, to enslave you, kill you, or eat you for dinner ;p

Maybe having a dialogue option to duel adventurers would be an interesting thing though... Aslong as i also have a dialogue option of pounding them into the dirt, looting all their gear, and then throwing them into the slave camp... Er.. wait. Why do i need a dialogue option for that?

Non-lethal already exists. use a non-bladed weapon like the police and slavers do. They seem to be able to subdue people just fine that way

Uh the fact people go out of there way to 'defend' you , in cities such as guards implies honour exists. and 'good' exists.

Just because you have no sense of personal honour don't apply that to everyone. like with the blindfold thing just because you aren't capable of it doesn't mean others wouldn't be.

Fighting with Honour, and Fighting with Dishonour are both things that are extremely common among warrior cultures.

Some warrior cultures apply their warriors codes strictly to their tribesmen , others apply it to all warriors whom they fight.

Also the 'blunt' weapons in Kenshi tend to way considerably more than Katana's do. the Sabres are also a bit to big to really be useful in most situations in a 'real' fight.

Katana's are lighter , and faster making them the ideal weapon to use in a fight.

Don't mistake an immoral nature for a honourable, or dishonourable one.

Where ever there is "bad" there is good, where ever there is dishonour. there is honour.

[Zeal]

Uh the fact people go out of there way to 'defend' you , in cities such as guards implies honour exists. and 'good' exists.

Just because you have no sense of personal honour don't apply that to everyone. like with the blindfold thing just because you aren't capable of it doesn't mean others wouldn't be.

Fighting with Honour, and Fighting with Dishonour are both things that are extremely common among warrior cultures.

Some warrior cultures apply their warriors codes strictly to their tribesmen , others apply it to all warriors whom they fight.

Also the 'blunt' weapons in Kenshi tend to way considerably more than Katana's do. the Sabres are also a bit to big to really be useful in most situations in a 'real' fight.

Katana's are lighter , and faster making them the ideal weapon to use in a fight.

Don't mistake an immoral nature for a honourable, or dishonourable one.

Where ever there is "bad" there is good, where ever there is dishonour. there is honour.

Walk into a police station carrying a loaded firearm. I'm pretty sure they're not going to approach, bow their head, draw their gun and pistal whip you until you're unconscious. No, they're going to shoot you.

There's a difference between the honor behaviors you're talking about here, against law and relations. It's not that much different in Kenshi. They have laws and people they like, which is normal, but honorable fighting is something entirely different.

Regardless, a dueling system is planned, but i'm pretty sure for any of it to work, the other party needs to have that mutual intention, instead of just wanting to mug you. Because an honorable combat requires mutual intention, or the one who is wanting to "duel" will end up using a lot more skill then they'd wish to anyway. It's not easy subduing someone who is legitimately trying to kill you, especially if they have a lethal weapon.

This all makes me want the unarmed combat to be implimented soon.. People were also talking about wishing for things like a "disarm" ability. If nothing else, with all that, you could still do as you wish to do here, whether it's a feature or not. You can choose to control your units in a way to do all this on your own. Equip a low quality weapon, or use blunt vs lethal. The ability for this is already there. It's very easy to knock people out already.

[Chinsei]

and in Kenshi theres no 'law' against it. Law is "Honour" o.o other wise it becomes survival of the fittest and LAw doesn't exist. and switching the circumstance to a ridiculous comparison , isn't a valid counter arguement.

A loaded gun into a police station . vs Kenshi a world with no guns. Laws on earth vs Laws in Kenshi. the defense of the 'weak' is an 'honourable' trait, people like say you , wouldn't defend the weak there for you would fall under the category of dishonourable. and please don't say you would :d attacking defenseless shop keepers is a sign of dishonour.

[Hatsune_Neko]

attacking defenseless shop keepers is a sign of dishonour.

It's a sign the shopkeeper needs better guards.

In Kenshi the only honour system that works is the one that lets you run. walk, or crawl away alive. and or what ever system you use yourself for RP.

[Zeal]

and in Kenshi theres no 'law' against it. Law is "Honour" o.o other wise it becomes survival of the fittest and LAw doesn't exist. and switching the circumstance to a ridiculous comparison , isn't a valid counter arguement.

A loaded gun into a police station . vs Kenshi a world with no guns. Laws on earth vs Laws in Kenshi. the defense of the 'weak' is an 'honourable' trait, people like say you , wouldn't defend the weak there for you would fall under the category of dishonourable. and please don't say you would :d attacking defenseless shop keepers is a sign of dishonour.

Not sure why you're bringing my irl morals into this. But even though it's not relavent, I'm one of the most compassionate people you'll ever meet, I assure you that ;p.

I was using irl with guns as an example that laws can exist without the "honorable combat" system. Whether it be guns or swords, they are both weapons for killing. I just couldn't say walking into a police station irl with a sword and getting stabbed to death by police, because that isn't how it works in our current world. You use what relations/examples you can to get a point across.

I personally like how Kenshi is without all that honor stuff. It's a brutal face-in-dirt world, and it holds a theme in that. Placing a strong feature like this in the game probably won't damage it, but I'd personally consider it a waste of time that could be placed elsewhere, as it doesn't do much for the kenshi theme.

Between adding "honor fighting" modes and adding modes like "Proximity guarding", etc. I'd prefer the latter, as it's more in line with Kenshi... Don't take that as me saying you're not allowed to post any features, because you most certainly are. But people are still free to their opinions.

I would also recommend you not make personal comments regarding me as a person, as it has no relevance to the discussion. That's the second time you've done so. I ignored the first. If you're feeling like i'm picking on you, it's probably because there aren't many people posting, and I'm contributing my thoughts on those that do.. I can stop posting in your threads if it bothers you.

[Chinsei]

While i don't remember which post it was, there is a post in which you mention going around and killing shop keepers and other things. that are generally 'defenseless' or harmless. which to me would be a dishonourable act.

Its not a 'personal' aspect its something you yourself has said you do.

and every world is 'brutal' the only people in this world who think its not brutal are those who have the luxury of being in police protected areas :p in countries where the police aren'y 70% corrupt.

[Zeal]

While i don't remember which post it was, there is a post in which you mention going around and killing shop keepers and other things. that are generally 'defenseless' or harmless. which to me would be a dishonourable act.

Its not a 'personal' aspect its something you yourself has said you do.

I've never posted anything like that. That's not what I do in Kenshi, but now I guess i understand what you were saying ;p

My general beatings are reserved for slavers and cannibals... I used to knock out weapons vendors though and steal their shirts, since it was the only way to get blackened chainmail without modding in the blueprints, but i'd atleast replace it with a normal chainmail/shirt.

[Chinsei]

Hm, i'm also not saying it should be a mandatory system , the non-lethal thing is because i dislike having to waste med kits to prevent Dust bandits, or hungry bandits worsening relationships when 'they' are the ones attacking me >.< the honour thing is some what similar , after all when rumours spread about someone they tend to fall on one of the two sides they're good and honourable and were helping people , or they were attacking people without mercy o.o

I don't like systems that 'force' you to be the bad, or good guy after all some 'dishonourable' acts can have honourable intent. there shouldn't be anything to prevent you from playing as you wish but there should be a way to help keep your characters behaving the way you wish them to.

personally if i had an army i'd like to think i'd use it to help , an protect people. more like a "police" force is supposed to , as opposed to kill squad behavior ^.^

o.o personally if it'd let me i'd recruit half the bandits that i fight not as controlled characters but as 'workers' and people to patrol an help keep the territory i claim as 'mine' secure from bandits so i don't have to deal with raiders 'unless' i want to o.o an i can reserve my controlled characters for more important tasks.

preferably with options on how i treat these more or less forcibly recruited individuals , do i force them to work without pay food water - more or less slaves or do i treat them fairly with some form(s) of pay ? :d

[Set]

If someone deserve to be healed I will heal him/her/them....and will be my "new recruit/s" (I want to control them), if the game alow me to do it in the future

P.S: Lethal, always lethal

[swillo]

Honorable or Dishonorable? Just play that way. If you don't want to attack someone don't. If they attack you (which they will), defeat them and then heal them and carry them to a bed for healing.
Or kill everything in sight.
When the faction reputations gets working correctly you will be able to make "friends" with some and enemies of others. Attacking shop keepers will make you less honorable in that factions eyes. Bandaging up fallen enemies would make you less hated by them. So in theory you would be able to have hungry bandits patrolling as friends, and dust bandits as enemies. Your actions would toward them would be what determines your "reputation/honor" with that group.

As for lethal vs not lethal, when you use a metal sword in combat it is always lethal.
But it would be nice to have Shinai or bokken swords that did no bleeding damage. So you could carry them around and beat a person unconscious with one but they wouldn't need first aid to recover. Of course this would take much more time.

I would also like to see when the Assignation skill is added, that there is a non lethal version that would knock someone out instantly instead of killing them. This would allow more options for game play.

[LootedWhileAwake]

As for lethal vs not lethal, when you use a metal sword in combat it is always lethal.

Not totally true, swords come with a hilt that can be used to batter up an opponent like a metal fist.
There could be some kicking, punching, use of the hilt and take-downs with momentum for non lethal combat.

[Chinsei]

Honorable or Dishonorable? Just play that way. If you don't want to attack someone don't. If they attack you (which they will), defeat them and then heal them and carry them to a bed for healing.
Or kill everything in sight.
When the faction reputations gets working correctly you will be able to make "friends" with some and enemies of others. Attacking shop keepers will make you less honorable in that factions eyes. Bandaging up fallen enemies would make you less hated by them. So in theory you would be able to have hungry bandits patrolling as friends, and dust bandits as enemies. Your actions would toward them would be what determines your "reputation/honor" with that group.

As for lethal vs not lethal, when you use a metal sword in combat it is always lethal.
But it would be nice to have Shinai or bokken swords that did no bleeding damage. So you could carry them around and beat a person unconscious with one but they wouldn't need first aid to recover. Of course this would take much more time.

I would also like to see when the Assignation skill is added, that there is a non lethal version that would knock someone out instantly instead of killing them. This would allow more options for game play.

"just play that way"

i can't force my character not to aim at ones legs which while rare is something that could be considered dishonourable to some.

I can't stop them from continueing to attack immediately after the person is incapable of fighting(IE broken arm) . and I'd really like not ot have to waste med kits on enemies.

also can't make him hold back against weaker opponents while this goes both ways on the honourable scale. depending on your perception.

i think holding back in a fight to give the opponent a somewhat 'fair' chance. is honourable of course goes without saying an has proven that holding back can result in an early death. and not many people would do it from fear of dying but i think it would fall under fighting fair.

i also in the event disarming becomes a thing tell my character to go fist to fist instead of sword to fist after disarming. and while there are micromanaging ways to do this. doing it for every character under your direct control would become tedious.

also honourable, or dishonourable in a world of warriors tends to mean alot.

[Hatsune_Neko]

this sounds more and more like a micromanaging nightmare.

not sure why you're worried about wasting medkits? bounties?

in my view an honorable fight is the one who walks away the winner, and they usually don't follow the rules and instead exploit them. it's kinda human nature. why fight fair? and in the world of Kenshi where there are slavers and cannibals. fighting fair sounds kinda like a good way to die. or become a slave.

i would pull every single dirty trick in the book i knew to fight and live, and even invent some new ones.

now in kenshi there will be unarmed combat in the future, that is planned.
Non lethal. use clubs. you can beat them down until they stop moving. and usually you won't kill them, unless you have the most heavy club around. and the skill to use it.

[Chinsei]

this sounds more and more like a micromanaging nightmare.

not sure why you're worried about wasting medkits? bounties?

in my view an honorable fight is the one who walks away the winner, and they usually don't follow the rules and instead exploit them. it's kinda human nature. why fight fair? and in the world of Kenshi where there are slavers and cannibals. fighting fair sounds kinda like a good way to die. or become a slave.

i would pull every single dirty trick in the book i knew to fight and live, and even invent some new ones.

now in kenshi there will be unarmed combat in the future, that is planned.
Non lethal. use clubs. you can beat them down until they stop moving. and usually you won't kill them, unless you have the most heavy club around. and the skill to use it.

Saving any enemy that was knocked/bleeding out - medkits to me part of being Honourable and being a 'good' guy. would be trying to make sure people don't die. even if they attack you.

Honour has many forms. and many views.

and how would it be a nightmare ? when all you have to do is tick a box an the character fights honourably.

it really isn't that complicated.

no more so then telling someone to fight micromanaging their 'block' or telling them to run as the enemy swings a sword to reduce the likelihood of them being injured. or insuring your characters aren't trying to open the gate on the rare instances the pathing bugs surface which aren't as frequent now but still present even if miniscule.

If whoever walks away the winner is honourable then perhaps there should be an abolishment of all law? after all most 'criminals' walk away the winner right? :p their acts there for are honourable.

also i like role playing and i like swords and i prefer using swords. theres no reason the character couldn't flip the sword over an focus on using the blunt side of the sword.

Or going with Kenshin, use a reverse blade sword.

the clubs in this to me seem quite silly since there heavier then they really need to be. and sabres look cumbersome. i doubt anyone could use them effectively in a fight. toppers, and No-Dachi were nice but there size and weight made them heavy, slow, and impractical in fighting.

however they were apparently good at cutting horses in half. they might be good for shock value in charging .

but in prolonged fighting they'd just tire the fighter out, an the speed would mean countering their attacks for an experienced fighter wouldn't be that difficult.

Katana, and swords in there class ,are lighter more flexible, and allow you to be more precise.

Honour has nothing to do with winning.

Honour is about being able to do what you believe is right. and being able to take pride in it. there of course are modern criminals who believe they're doing whats 'right' by their beliefs.

but part of honour is also in not harming those weaker than you.

people who have no sense of honour. should never be trusted with anything.

[Abek]

Okay, so I think I understand where you're coming from. You role play in the game as a good character. A paladin that refuses to kill despite the harsh nature of Kenshi's world. You want a way for your character to restrain himself in combat and not accidentally murder anyone. Some of your request is already implemented because characters already, "Don't strike opponents that are down, don't attack those who are unarmed or fleeing." When defending yourself, crippled enemies in Kenshi are considered out of action and won't be targeted unless you attack them yourself. Your enemies are required by the laws and mechanics of the game to leave you alive after they knock you out. Even the dogs can't eat you. That must be so frustrating for them, but it has to be this way.
In a role-play sense, even the dogs have to treat fallen enemies honorably.
Additionally, the lethal/non-lethal setting would be weird. If you were to toggle this, causing your character to stop inflicting cutting damage and only allowing blunt damage from their weapons, katanas have such a low blunt damage that you would be ineffective in combat regardless of combat skill.

The lethality of combat is predetermined by your choice of weapon. You choose prior to your fight how deadly you want to be. My problem was actually the opposite of yours. I wanted to train up my medic skill, so I found out the best way to do this was to use a low quality wakizashi so that I could cut them again and again until they bled out. That maximized the damage to their body overall so I could use up more of my medkits. It's not just the type of weapon that determines the lethality, but the quality of the weapon. My character uses a Catun IV club to collect bounties. Based on my strength, it does exactly 100-110 blunt damage to an enemy. This knocks them out instantly and safely. The enemy recieves 1 second of treatment because there's not much to treat. This is my suggestion for you. Pick a club, standard or heavy, and lower the quality until it does as close to 100 damage based on your strength. That's your non-lethal, low medical care option. It's quite honorable given the circumstances. Bandits swarm you, you knock them out, they wake up an hour later with a headache. No need for medkits.

Out of this post, I like the idea of sand kicking as a combat mechanic. It would have low chance of triggering and your toughness would determine whether or not your character went "stumbling" as they do when struck with a heavy blow.

[Chinsei]

Okay, so I think I understand where you're coming from. You role play in the game as a good character. A paladin that refuses to kill despite the harsh nature of Kenshi's world. You want a way for your character to restrain himself in combat and not accidentally murder anyone. Some of your request is already implemented because characters already, "Don't strike opponents that are down, don't attack those who are unarmed or fleeing." When defending yourself, crippled enemies in Kenshi are considered out of action and won't be targeted unless you attack them yourself. Your enemies are required by the laws and mechanics of the game to leave you alive after they knock you out. Even the dogs can't eat you. That must be so frustrating for them, but it has to be this way.
In a role-play sense, even the dogs have to treat fallen enemies honorably.
Additionally, the lethal/non-lethal setting would be weird. If you were to toggle this, causing your character to stop inflicting cutting damage and only allowing blunt damage from their weapons, katanas have such a low blunt damage that you would be ineffective in combat regardless of combat skill.

The lethality of combat is predetermined by your choice of weapon. You choose prior to your fight how deadly you want to be. My problem was actually the opposite of yours. I wanted to train up my medic skill, so I found out the best way to do this was to use a low quality wakizashi so that I could cut them again and again until they bled out. That maximized the damage to their body overall so I could use up more of my medkits. It's not just the type of weapon that determines the lethality, but the quality of the weapon. My character uses a Catun IV club to collect bounties. Based on my strength, it does exactly 100-110 blunt damage to an enemy. This knocks them out instantly and safely. The enemy recieves 1 second of treatment because there's not much to treat. This is my suggestion for you. Pick a club, standard or heavy, and lower the quality until it does as close to 100 damage based on your strength. That's your non-lethal, low medical care option. It's quite honorable given the circumstances. Bandits swarm you, you knock them out, they wake up an hour later with a headache. No need for medkits.

Out of this post, I like the idea of sand kicking as a combat mechanic. It would have low chance of triggering and your toughness would determine whether or not your character went "stumbling" as they do when struck with a heavy blow.

I think eventually they'll add in the ability for bandits and dogs to kill people who are knocked out. after all cannibals can pick you up an carry you to be eaten which eventually would kill you.

from the bandit perspective you're in a desert beaten unconcious and , probably wouldn't survive so theres no point in helping you...course our characters seem slightly more resilient then the NPC characters.

but i do think that animals and other people 'should' kill you. i mean theres no reason for a creature who eats meat not to eat the human..unless there taste buds are to refined to enjoy the taste of humans in which case this is discrimination! i demand equal rights to be eaten >.>

personally i'd just like to play a post-battousai Rouroni Kenshin . also humans can be quite fragile i mean a single blow to the side of the head just hard enough could knock you out no matter how physically fit you are. the reason it doesn't occur as much in some things like boxing is both because they've become somewhat more durable given all the head shots. an because the gloves reduce the impact more then skin and bone impacting would.

an of course there the movie cliche of people fighting with Canes just tripping people making them tire themselves out an eventually they'd collapse on their own. when stamina becomes a thing. there could be alot more ways for characters to win fights without killing. or doing any serious harm.

Course theres also the cliche clown way of winning a fight by (think Vash the Stampede) you could just mess around with them till they gave up. and went elsewhere.

Now i'm not saying any of this should be mandatory or forced. nor am i saying these things are common in history or anything like that i just think they'd be fun/enjoyable mechanics to have in the game.

because in games its so rare to be able to win a fight without harming people. yet it could be done. alot of fights could be won simply by removing your opponents will to fight. if you were 'super' skilled you could do this by simply performing feats during the fight that would so this gradually discouraging them from continueing. wouldn't work on everyone but wouldn't be unheard of.

i just think it'd be cool things to have. there is a line between realism and fun :d if Kenshi were 100% realistic in every thing most of our characters would be dead the first game week from infections ...though i wouldn't complain if diseases were added >.>

i mean just imagine how much blood, is on those rusty clubs an swords the bandits carry. the rust alone could give you TB >.>

humans are extremely fragile if our characters had 'pain' to effect them every time we were hit we'd gradually slow down. and almost anywhere you cut or stab a human could be lethal. personally i believe it requires more skill to win without inflicting harm than it does by killing.

I can't speak for the other species. but humans are quite easy to kill. its why we make use of so many tools to aid our survival.